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wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) PowerDork
7/20/21 5:52 a.m.

Man, this thread has more twists and turns rgan anything since...well, your Jalpa thread. Keep up the good fight, and keep safe.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/20/21 10:49 a.m.

In reply to corsepervita :

Oh man, sorry to hear about the pup.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
8/27/21 11:19 a.m.

Update:
 

- Oil pump and housing sourced and here.  

- Massive thank you to Viper Specialty Performance.  Dan there is berkeleying amazing.  He's been on the phone twice with me to answer questions I had.  I have an entire gasket kit for the upper and lower engine, oil pan gasket (yes, a real one unlike a PO did) and his prices are reasonable for what you get, along with the experience and advice he has.  If anyone has ANY Gen Viper, give Dan a call because god damn he's good at what he does.  http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/catalog/  His advice was absolutely crucial in many of the decisions I ended up making, routes I ended up taking on the rebuild and going with the kits he has.  This viper deserves to be better than stock, and I just can't thank him enough.

- Managed to source some trimetal clevite bearings.  Seems all distributors were completely out of them.  I hung out on ebay looking up part numbers and was thankfully able to source some of those, along with some factory bearings as well (just in case).

- At this point, need to get the heads skimmed, double check the cam and it's time to get the snek back on the road.

surfshibby07
surfshibby07 HalfDork
8/27/21 12:08 p.m.

In reply to corsepervita :

I have been following along. looking at potentially getting a 2002 Final Edition viper. stock motor but has a turbo kit on 6lbs, so im weary of the longevity given the cast pistons. luckily you have listed some good sources here for parts in the event i get it and it grenades. looking forward to seeing you get yours back together. 

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
8/27/21 12:20 p.m.
surfshibby07 said:

In reply to corsepervita :

I have been following along. looking at potentially getting a 2002 Final Edition viper. stock motor but has a turbo kit on 6lbs, so im weary of the longevity given the cast pistons. luckily you have listed some good sources here for parts in the event i get it and it grenades. looking forward to seeing you get yours back together. 

These engines are really stout.  Lots of them have been running stock internals for a long long time.  However, as easy as these engines are to take apart, and as readily available as the aftermarket pistons and rings are, I would say not to be afraid of it.  I got the heads off and was down to the block in a matter of hours and had never even touched one before.  

I can't imagine 6lbs being all that crazy to run though, that's a pretty small amount, so as long as it isn't moon tuned, I would think it would last quite a good long time.  Given the displacement of these engines, it's not a ton of stress on them.

surfshibby07
surfshibby07 HalfDork
8/27/21 8:39 p.m.

In reply to corsepervita :

I agree. It was tuned very conservatively by calvo. And its running and aem infinity and makes 650whp. Which ive read is right at the ceiling where most dont venture beyond on the creampuff engines. Its good to know they are simple. I couldnt imagine them being too difficult given they are pushrod motors. 

surfshibby07
surfshibby07 HalfDork
9/2/21 8:30 a.m.

Just an FYI, i pulled the trigger on it. Ill make a thread that im sure you will see soon. thanks for the feedback and a thread that inspired confidence to own one!

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
9/7/21 12:56 p.m.
surfshibby07 said:

Just an FYI, i pulled the trigger on it. Ill make a thread that im sure you will see soon. thanks for the feedback and a thread that inspired confidence to own one!

WHOO!  VIPER FAM!

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/1/21 4:19 p.m.

Update: Heads are finally back from the machine shop. 

All cleaned up, in great shape, new valve stem seals.

Need to pull the oil housing off and double check the cam.  If all is well it's time to put it back together.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/14/21 10:22 p.m.

Update:

So I have one more part I'm waiting on I thought I had but am missing.

In the mean time, my smooth tubes are here from my wait after a while.  A previous owner put a nice hot air intake on it.  I hunted down an OEM intake setup and am looking at ways to lower my IAT.

I am using my "under the hood thermistor" solution I made a while back and am currently trying something tonight.

I have 2 brands of heat tape.  One is inexpensive "amazon special" and another is DEI heat tape.

Tape used:
DEI: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0039Z1UWA?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Amazon special: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CCH1HWL?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Experiment 1:

- The smooth tubes will be measured prior to the experiment starting.  (untaped measured in at 71F and untaped started in at 70.9F)

- Our control group will be smooth tube #1.  A thermistor will be added and the tops of each tube blocked off.

- Smooth tube #2 will have the inexpensive heat tape added.  A thermistor will be added and the tops of each tube blocked off.

- Both tubes will be sat identically next to each other, an equal distance away from an electric heater, which will run for approximately 1 hour on high, while I sweat in my office.

 

Once hour 1 is complete, the tape will be removed and IPA used to clean smooth tube #2, and DEI tape will replace it.   The tubes will cool down to room temp.  Once this is done, it will be ran again to see if there is a delta between the two brands.

We are 10 minutes in.  Current temps are:
Untaped: 90F

Taped: 87F

The tubes both feel warm to the touch, nearly identical.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/14/21 10:32 p.m.

Alright.

The delta is getting larger between the two.

Untaped: 106F

Taped: 98.7F

Update.  Halfway there.

Untaped: 111.35F

Taped: 103.4F

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/15/21 12:50 a.m.

final temp
108 untaped, 115 taped. 

That's after soaking for an entire hour.

Taped definitely did provide /some/ reduction in temperatures with a somewhat minimal lambda.

I'm waiting for the temperature to level out so I can test with the DEI.

DEI is taped up and ready to go.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/15/21 12:53 a.m.

There are very visible construction differences between the amazon special (on the left) and the DEI (on the right)

 

The DEI is noticeably more reflective looking, and the construction looks more consistent.

 

The Amazon special is definitely more matte, not as consistent looking.

 

Will it matter? Well, only data will tell us.

Now, these measurements I took were on the fly, however, I have an arduino datalogging to a micro sd card with all of the measurements every 10 seconds, so at some point, so long as my code worked, I can plot with.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/15/21 1:17 a.m.

Alright, pipes are both back down to 71.

Let's see how the DEI holds up.

Update, a delta of nearly 10 degrees so far.

99 degrees with the DEI

No DEI is 110F.

I'm guessing the ambient temp of my office is slightly warmer than the last test since we are somewhat approaching previous temps quicker.  I will compare the delta once we hit 115 degrees and hold it for 5-10 minutes.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/15/21 1:39 a.m.

Alright - held the 115 for a good 5 minutes, it didn't hardly want to get past that.  

The DEI got a maximum of 107F.

A difference of 1F between the DEI and the amazon special.

I let it run for even longer to see just how much it would soak up past that.  

At 108F with the DEI (same temp the amazon special got to) the untaped tube got up to 117.  

So a delta of almost 10F.

The performance gap between the two is not significant except at lower temps.  My observation through the lower temps is that the DEI consistently kept a greater than 10F difference most of the time until the parts started to really heat up.  After that the temp difference stayed closer to 10F but honestly it didn't stay significantly farther ahead the amazon special.

I'm going to try some of this stuff out on the vette in a real world scenario since the intakes on the LS2 are very prone to heatsoak and see how that helps.  I have HPTuner now with an MPVI2+ so I'll datalog some before and after.  In the near future once the viper is back together I'll datalog some real driving differences.  I'll keep the E36 M3ty intake so I can log the original IAT with them, and then with the airbox and smooth tubes with the DEI.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
10/23/21 4:57 p.m.

Viper related - Cover is off, oil pump is off, cam is partially out.  I think the cam is going to be fine.

So far, everything looks like it's got film buildup from sitting, but nothing that terrifies me.

I was told by viper specialty performance that if there were bad journals I'd feel it as the cam came out since the lips would make it especially hard to get the cam out.

This thing came out like a hot knife through butter, smooth as silk, real easy.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
10/28/21 3:52 p.m.

Hard to tell but it looks from pic 1 that the journal on the far right might have some front to rear taper in it.  I know many cam journals do that to promote rotation but that one looks particularly tapered.  Could be the lighting though.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
11/14/21 4:44 p.m.

Alright so quick update:

The cam is back in, timing is set, cover is back on, and i'm about ready to do the heads.  However, I've run into a very odd issue.

That is that dodge sent me two styles of lifters because apparently, this is all they had left.  Now, on top of this, on both of the new style lifters, the bleeder holes are oriented up and down, where the old style lifters were on the sides.  

So now my predicament is:  Is there any issue with running various styles?  What do I do about orientation?  I would assume the bleeder holes need to face down, but I'm not actually sure.  The manual does not state what the orientation of the bleeder hole even should be.  

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
11/14/21 5:10 p.m.

I think I may have found the answer.
According to what I'm reading, dodge has 2 separate "types" of lifters, with the same part numbers, which apparently has varied with where they were made.  Appears the bleeder holes need to be oriented UP.  I'm calling it a day.  Bleh.

Now the real interesting question is:  Why are the lifters on the original OEM style having bleeders in the sides, and all new styles are up?

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
11/18/21 9:54 p.m.

Wondering if anyone out there has any experience with ECU flashing early 90s dodge cars.  I'm looking into ECU solutions and aside from going to a standalone, the previous solutions were piggybacks.  There was a shop (DC Performance) which appears to have gone out of business years ago that had the ability to tune and flash them.  From reading it appears that the viper uses the SBEC or an SBECII, which differs quite a bit from the 2nd gen cars.

I found a forum, the turbo dodge forum, which has some guys who apparently having a tuning, datalogging and flashing solution called the "MPFlash" - anyone have experience with these? Familiar with them?

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/19/21 4:08 a.m.

In reply to corsepervita :

Perhaps someone on GRM staff could put you in touch with Erich Heuschele, he was a Chrysler engineer who raced Neons and then Vipers for several years. 

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
12/18/21 12:54 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to corsepervita :

Perhaps someone on GRM staff could put you in touch with Erich Heuschele, he was a Chrysler engineer who raced Neons and then Vipers for several years. 

Sorry it took me so long to respond.  I would be like a kid at Christmas if I ever got to talk to anyone to who raced vipers or had anything to do with the viper project.

I haven't done a lot of updates on this as of recent.  Work has had me absolutely slammed, and the recent log4j stuff (anyone in IT knows what I'm talking about) has had me at a lack of sleep this week.

So here's an update!

- The engine is nearly ready to fire up.  

- The new oil pump housing was a perfect fit, I tested the sensors, everything is within spec.  

- I've managed to hunt down some tri-metal bearings for the rod bearings after hunting ebay and watching for weeks with part numbers.  They're in my possession and ready to go.

- I have purchased ARP fasteners and an entire gasket kit from Viper Specialty Performance with MLS gaskets.  Heads are on, waiting on blockoff plates for the coolant passageways.  Somehow, and we aren't sure where, in the occurrence of having the heads machined and making their way back to the shop, the blockoff plates went missing.  The shop is really meticulous, so it would be weird for it to go missing there.  I trust the machinist.  However, I also trust the shop, and they are also very meticulous.  I'm not placing blame on anyone.  Somehow they got lost, period end of story.  They are supposed to arrive tomorrow, not a huge deal, I am just very thankful and lucky that moparpartsgiant somehow ACTUALLY had these weird, NLA parts in stock.

- Everything on the engine is torqued to spec, and I have upgraded the steering rack mounts to billet aluminum mounts.  One of the largest complaints is that with time, as the bushings wear, the car tends to track hard in things like ruts and bumps, which my car experienced.  My bushings were not "shot" by any means, but they were showing signs of wear and it was time.

- The entire engine has been resealed at this point, I am missing the intake manifold gasket "pins" (which hold the gasket in place) on one of them, but am using one of the OEM pins to 3d print one.  Should have that printed by the morning and ready to go.  

- Parts should arrive tomorrow and at that point it'll be a case of getting the intake manifold gaskets wrapped up, getting the fuel system hooked back up, everything bled, and then making sure it's got good oil pressure.

Might have a first start after rebuild this weekend, might not.  Not going to rush it, going to take my time.  The factory procedure on these is literally to start the engine and let it idle for 30 seconds which gives me a nervous amount of anxiety.  The reason for this is apparently that it uses a vacuum rotor crank driven oil pump that without crank pressure, cannot build enough vacuum to pull oil.  However, the shop that it's at has the tools to place vacuum on the crank case and hopefully we can do it at cranking rpm.  We'll try it, and at worst case scenario, will try to prime the system with the factory procedure.

Either way, almost back up.  Once the viper is back up and going, the Jalpa is next because I miss driving that car like nothing else.

silvermane_1
silvermane_1 New Reader
12/18/21 5:06 a.m.
surfshibby07 said:

Congrats! a 1996 Viper GTS has been my dream car since the iconic blue w/ white stripes model on the cover of the[b] ps one gran turismo. [/b]

Incredibly awesome cars. Definitely redefines no replacement for displacement at over 8 liters. lol

surfshibby07, the Dodge Viper GTS was on the inside sleeve of Gran Turismo, the car on the cover is a covered up Acura NSX, IIRC:

silvermane_1
silvermane_1 New Reader
12/18/21 5:13 a.m.

Nice there corpsepervita, the gen 1 Vipers were the best looking ones IMHO, also they're pretty barebones supercars, like the Speed series TVRs.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
12/19/21 6:13 p.m.

Well, was hoping to work on the car but my parts all got rescheduled for tuesday for delivery :( was supposed to be yesterday.

On a side note, lost some of my intake manifold gasket holding pins, so 5 minutes in cad and some 3d printing and POOF.  got new ones.

Literally could not find any place that sold them individually and it appears they come with factory gaskets.  However, I'm using cometic, and cometic doesn't do that.  So... the old ones are trashed, cracked and no good for the most part.

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