Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/4/22 11:30 a.m.
golfduke said:

I love the KISS method of engineering that went into all of your projects this weekend. 

I'm forced into the KISS method because if it's not simple I probably can't fabricate it. 

Nocones, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have that problem. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/4/22 11:39 a.m.
nocones said:

Tank straps are 2 strips of 16ga Mild Steel with some old bike intertube slid over the top. Many a joke where made during that process.  

My favorite part was right after we put the rubbers on. 

nocones
nocones PowerDork
5/4/22 1:23 p.m.

In reply to golfduke :

Yes sometimes in search of trying to make everything do to much it's easy to loose sight of the easier solution.  Dual radiators was initially a plan to move more weight forward in the car.   But your right there is added complexity but it's not insurmountable.  I'm hopeful the Civic radiator will be sufficient.  It's a dual core about 40% of the surface area of the single core stock radiator.  It seems reasonable that it will provide sufficient cooling for my use considering the stock radiator is designed to live behind an AC evaporator and keep the Outback cool in extreme heat while potentially pulling 2400lbs of trailer.  

Simpler is almost always better but sometimes you get so far along a path that had good reasons to get their that it takes someone else looking at it and going, "Just do this simple thing".  It's always good engineering to abandon your plan when a better solution shows itself.

Shavarsh
Shavarsh Reader
5/4/22 1:41 p.m.

Very cool to have creative (and knowledgeable) help around to see alternative paths. Well done.

golfduke
golfduke Dork
5/4/22 1:50 p.m.
nocones said:

In reply to golfduke :

Yes sometimes in search of trying to make everything do to much it's easy to loose sight of the easier solution.  Dual radiators was initially a plan to move more weight forward in the car.   But your right there is added complexity but it's not insurmountable.  I'm hopeful the Civic radiator will be sufficient.  It's a dual core about 40% of the surface area of the single core stock radiator.  It seems reasonable that it will provide sufficient cooling for my use considering the stock radiator is designed to live behind an AC evaporator and keep the Outback cool in extreme heat while potentially pulling 2400lbs of trailer.  

Simpler is almost always better but sometimes you get so far along a path that had good reasons to get their that it takes someone else looking at it and going, "Just do this simple thing".  It's always good engineering to abandon your plan when a better solution shows itself.

Yup.  Way back in my engineering days, we'd have team meetings for large problems, and it was always the same formula-  Lets figure out A way to sovle X problem... then lets think of a way to implement that solution into a more simpler and efficient manner. 

Everything can be simplified, there's just a branch off point with rexspect to budget, manpower, and other resources.  I always loved a saying my intro to Structure engineering Professor used to say-  Just because you can dig a hole with a shovel doesn't mean you have to dig every hole with one... 

 

maschinenbau
maschinenbau UltraDork
5/4/22 2:10 p.m.

I love all this progress happening again! Hmm, $60 all-aluminum low-profile radiator...wonder if it would cool a 3.5L through 8ft of piping?

nocones
nocones PowerDork
5/23/22 2:34 p.m.

It's been quite a while since the last update.   Some stuff has been done but not as much as I hoped.  Shortly after the last update I wound up with COVID again.   It thankfully wasn't to bad just fatigue and cough/fever for 4-5 days, but unfortunately it was only 5 days before Hyperfest which meant I had to skip it.   This lead me to get pretty unmotivated and down on the whole project, which lead to not a lot of progress.    But I'm starting to get a little more motivation again so some progress is happening.  

I finished off the removable seat bolts.  It's a little fiddly with loads of bolts but it works and should be plenty strong.  

I also worked on the rear fender mounts.   The first part of this was creating some triangulated bars the width of the car.  There are removable because I figured it would be annoying to have them attached to the subframe permanently for maintenance.  The bars are 3/4 and the smaller tubes are 1/2.  

I will use these bars to tie into the back of the fenders as well as the endplates for the wing.  

Moving to the front of the fenders I'm going to tie them to the top of the sidepods.  Again I want everything removable so I made some bolt in tubes that will hold the fenders and the sidepods.  These are still under development.

I switched the radiator over to a Honda Civic radiator.  For mounts I tried to keep it as simple as possible.  I found a piece of 3/8 fuel line fit nicely over the studs on the radiator.  This fuel like fits nicely inside the 1"*.120 wall tube.  So the mounts are just slightly long pieces of hose inside capped tubes.  It's basic but allows flex of the radiator.  For the top mount I simply used a piece of angle iron and bolted it through the firewall.  Again simple rather then complicated.

The last thing I did was make the fender mounts.  In the back I added some sheet metal to have bolts from the back.  This currently is an angle of 18ga but will be boxed in.  The tabs are just pieces of 1" tube cut in half.  

The front mounts I added a plate to the front of the fender.  Eventually this will tie to the rest of the fender.  

That pretty much brings it up to date.  I also ground off the 1/4" of Bondo and paint off the fenders to prepare for the next phase of making the rest of the fender.  

Total that adds 14.5 hrs and $79.55 of which $67 was the civic radiator.  

I am feeling a little more motivated so hopefully I start pushing again.  I have a lot of events planned for the car and they start at the end of next month so lots to do, hopefully I get on my horse again.  

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) PowerDork
5/23/22 4:47 p.m.

I had Covid twice as well. Double Vaxxed, boostered, then boom, second time. Bummer, indeed.

As to the car, freakin awesome as always!

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) Dork
5/23/22 5:52 p.m.

Sorry about the covid and missing events. Damn glad you are back to this fantastic build!

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/20/22 1:37 p.m.

Alright, it's been a bit but we took vacation.  I'm back now I have a few updates to make so I'll put them in a few posts.   We left off with me getting the rear fenders mounted.   I started on the rear fender flares.   I went around and around on this trying to decide how I wanted to attach them.   I could have just fillet welded them in but the stock sheet metal is so thin I was concerned about warpage and blow through as I welded them.   So I bought a new tool (Well 3 new tools).  I've been enamored watching Retropower Uncut weekly build videos by many things they do but the spot welded seemed to be magical.  So I went to HF and bought one.   This thing is going to make an excellent heavy hammer when it breaks.   I bought the 220V one because it seemed best and having never used one before it seems fine.  So my plan is to build a fender flare with a flange that will be spot welded inside the stock fenders metal.  In order to get the curvature I needed a shrinker / stretcher combo.  Again HF to the rescue.  Being much to lazy to mount them properly I found the bolt pattern matches a 114.3 5 lug spacing so they initially were mounted to the old brake disks off my wife's car.  I had a set of the 8 lug giant disks off my RV and they now are both mounted to 1 disc.  They actually work pretty well this way, which you can see in the background of a few other pictures.

So the technique for the flare is to make a hardboard template that fits the fender exactly.  That template is transferred to metal and 3/4" is added to the fender side.  

To bend the flange I made a tool.  I can't remember where I saw this but it was on a video or on the forum somewhere.  I took a piece of bar and cut a slot 3/4" deep.  I rounded the side of the slots slightly just to not dent the metal as much.  You then just slowly bend the flange moving the tool along.

After you have the flange you just use the stretcher to make the radius you need to match the fender and you get this:

At this point I got distracted and moved to the front fender.

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/20/22 2:31 p.m.

The front fenders are a little more complicated then the rear.  This is for 2 reasons.  Obviously the wheel can turn which makes clearance more difficult.  And, when I did the epic trash for 2021 I cut way to much off the fenders to ensure clearance.  To ensure clearance I put the wheels at full bump and 0 camber so as wide as possible.   Then I went to work mocking up the flare in hardboard while adding material back to the fender.  The plan was to weld in a piece to close in the fender and the use the same flanged technique as the rear.  

Again the hardboard is transferred to steel and gets but welded using dozens of little dots.  I lack the skills and tools to truly form this metal.  Thankfully minimal shape is required on this part of the fender and the loss of curvature isn't really noticed.  A bit of Bondo and it will look good enough.  Before the weld is planished I strike the weld with a hammer and dolly to expand the weld.  The filler metal shrinks as it cools and will result in waves in the seam.   Stretching it with a hammer and dolly return it to it's unwelded cold flatness.  I actually do this 2 times after the first pass of welds which leaves ablout 1/8" between welds which get filled in the second pass.  

The flat top of the flare is made just like the rear.  The flange is bent and stretched to make the shape.  

This too part was trimmed to be about 1/2" narrower then the tire.  I learned with the MG that you want the vertical part of the flare to actually be somewhat angled.  It's stronger that way.  Also after adding the flange to the top I decided that adding a 1/4" return to the inside of the wheel would add significant strength.   

The vertical was made the same way as others except this time a 1/4" was added to the inside of the curve.  The bending tool was notched on the other end with a 1/4" deep slot and the face angled to allow for bends >90*.  Bending this flange made the part way smaller radius then desired because the flange pulled it in.  To fix that I simply layed the part flat on the ground and pressed it back flat stretching the metal on the flange.  This part was then welded on to the flare and spot welded where it contacts the fender.  I will probably TIG weld this along the edge to have the best possible weld.  Spotwelds where placed about every 1" along the flange.  And this is the result.

Overall I'm super happy with the results.  The spot welded flange was so easy to deal with and adds huge strength and stiffness to the fender. 

Total was +9.5 hours, and since sheet metal is cheap +$2.03.  Now I just have to Ctrl+C, right click Mirror and make another one.  

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/20/22 2:36 p.m.

Looking awesome! 

Instead of that tool you made, I usually use an adjustable wrench with the jaws pretty close together. 

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/20/22 3:22 p.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

That's a good idea also.  I think I will develop a tool with adjustable depth.  Put a bolt with a lock nut in the throat so I can lock it out from 1/4"-1" flange depth.  Having the stop makes it really easy to make the line what you want on a curved panel. 

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/21/22 10:33 a.m.

Drivers side extension and flare top are finished.  Not sure why but I struggled a bit more with the weld on this side.  It's smooth but just a little ridge that I can't grind smooth without thinning the adjacent metal.  It's nothing a very thin Bondo layer won't hide.  

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/23/22 8:27 a.m.

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V operation complete.  They nearly are the same.  I'll take that.  Nearly is fine.  

Rigante
Rigante Reader
6/23/22 12:53 p.m.

Looking really cool Dan, those retropower boys do some amazing work. 

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/28/22 12:24 p.m.

Alright after a short break for Gridlife it's 2 weeks until SubieFest.  This thing has to look more carlike by then and should probably be able to drive again.   

The goal over the next two weeks, finish fenders, make some kind of side pods, wood SCCA legal front element, radiator plumbing and fan, temporary spraybomb the body/fenders.  Wire new battery and make run.  I have approval from the family for a 2 week "thrash" to get this going.   Documentation of costs/timing may slip a bit over this time but don't worry I'm writing everything down and tracking it all.  

So last night I resumed work on the rear fenders.  The fenders are getting a lower extension to divide air in front of the tires.  Eventually they will have a inner panel but for now they will just have this outer piece.   

There is work to do on the upper mount area to smooth the transition to the eventual sidepods.  Think Current Indycar for how that's going to look.  

The flare will be trimmed and a face piece put on that will extend down and make the front "wrap" the tire a little more.   I also have to extend the rear of the fender down which will have an angle to mount the eventual diffuser to.   Overall I like the way this is headed.  

maschinenbau
maschinenbau UberDork
6/28/22 3:42 p.m.
nocones said:

 Overall I like the way this is headed.  

I think it's safe to say that we all do too.

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/29/22 10:41 a.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Thanks.  I really hope it delivers on the concept when it's finished.  

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/29/22 10:51 a.m.

More rear fender work.  I got the flare top spot welded on and added the extension to the front extension so I could have it wrap the tire a bit more.  This does look way better.  

Before I put the Lip on the flare I need the rear done also.   I went around and around on how to do this.   The notch I had built earlier was for attaching the eventual diffuser.   That was about the only known feature of how the rear would go.   I mocked up a few different ideas but in the end I decided to go with something that exposed the bottom of the tires like the Praga R1R road car and the Valkyrie uses.   

It's all metal now as a placeholder.   Once the diffuser is on it will be trimmed back and a piece placed that matches the angle of horizontal expansion of the diffuser.  The angle now is kinda "it looks fine".  Overall I like this approach, it looks "modern" but doesn't loose the shape of the OEM fender.   

It's sorta hard to capture the shape.  It's a undercut and a simple L bent piece of metal welded to the bottom of the cutoff fender.  For now it has an extension that goes down with a 1/4" return just to stay straight.  I realize this is almost the same picture as before but here it is from a little lower angle with kinda wierd lighting.

 

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/30/22 10:40 a.m.

Not as much progress last night because I fought with this lip and did some weld grinding on the fender.  It's a little closer to the tire then I wanted but it is what it is.  If it's an issue I can redo it later.  I more fully welded this one because I had to roll the lip out some.  

3/4 down.   1 to go..

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/30/22 10:55 a.m.

Which is easier? Get the wheel to match the fender? Or just make the fender match the wheel?

Seems most people do the first but you are doing the second.

gumby
gumby Dork
6/30/22 10:58 a.m.

When you put an alignment on the rear, the negative camber will make your tire clearance perfect. Looks berkeleyin bitchin! 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltimaDork
6/30/22 10:58 a.m.

Close is good for aero, right?

nocones
nocones PowerDork
6/30/22 11:49 a.m.

In reply to gumby :

Yes this is correct.  Pictures are at 0 camber, full Bump so as low (high in the fender) as possible.  So clearance will open up.  

 

I'm not sure if this is easier then trying to buy wheels that fit perfectly, but it sure is cheaper.

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