SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/5/21 9:37 a.m.

Most of the trasnmission uses plastic or brass thrust washers. This replaces the critical ones with flat disc roller bearings (torrington). The center section of the 4L80 also gets extra machining to fit a bearing where there is none.

The way the 4L80E seems to be designed, it shoves all of your thrust to the back of the case, which is really hard on that last bushing. Many people rollerize the output shaft just for this, but if you're willing to machine, you can take some of those forces and disperse them elsewhere in the guts so even less of it gets to the rear thrust surface.

Does that help?

Probably minimal performance gain (less friction, probably), but likely better longevity.

golfduke
golfduke Dork
10/5/21 9:44 a.m.
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:

Most of the trasnmission uses plastic or brass thrust washers. This replaces the critical ones with flat disc roller bearings (torrington). The center section of the 4L80 also gets extra machining to fit a bearing where there is none.

The way the 4L80E seems to be designed, it shoves all of your thrust to the back of the case, which is really hard on that last bushing. Many people rollerize the output shaft just for this, but if you're willing to machine, you can take some of those forces and disperse them elsewhere in the guts so even less of it gets to the rear thrust surface.

Does that help?

Probably minimal performance gain (less friction, probably), but likely better longevity.

That makes total sense to me!  Pretty creative solution to a known trans issue too. 

 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
10/5/21 10:55 a.m.

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

I now know more about 4L80E gearboxes than I did when I woke up. Thanks.  You should consider teaching for a living!

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/5/21 9:13 p.m.

Hmmmm... I may have to consider that.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/10/21 6:10 p.m.

Nothing new to report. Busy week with work and stuff.

Scrubbed the 4L80E case down in anticipation of reassembly.  Scrubbing with lacquer thinner and a stainless brush on the outside, liberal hosing with Brakleen on the inside.  All wrapped up tight and waiting for parts.

Haven't done much this week because I'm waiting, but it's Thanksgiving in Canada, and allegedly I should spend time with family....

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/11/21 11:32 p.m.

Swapping the Detroit TrueTrac into my 9" axle so that I'm at least doing [I]something[/I] while waiting on trans parts, and things aren't making sense....

... Turns out I actually HAVE an LSD in there already, just a worn out one.

No matter. I still REALLY prefer the TrueTrac in a street vehicle. Need to pick up the correct ring gear bolts though.

Could proabbly sell the old one to someone....

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/12/21 3:23 p.m.

Exciting news - local auto parts store has the ARP Ford 9" bolts the correct length!

Exciting update - the shank is too long, and they will not work!

Exciting update - the original bolts, which could be shortened, look/feel/measure "stretched" to me; I'm not going to use them!

Exciting update - ARP does in fact have the correct bolts, with the correct head, at the correct length, with the correct washers, with the correct diameter and length of shank to fit my Ford ring gear and Eaton TrueTrac differential. One week shipping....

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/16/21 3:49 p.m.

Most of the trans parts arrived, but we're prepping the house for replacement windows next week, so..... I'll get there when I get there.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/18/21 7:37 p.m.

TRANS MOD 1: Rollerized Output

I used a Late 4L80E pump bushing (0.700" wide), protruding 0.100" into the case, with 0.125" protruding out back, assisted by red loctite and staked in place. Other people use an Early 4L80E pump bushing (0.550" wide) or a TH400 case bushing (0.615" wide), or a Sonnax "No-Walk" bushing installed backwards. The original case bushing is 0.419" wide, and rests in a 0.475" wide bore.

A TH350 pump bushing (AC Delco 9436851) is placed inside, black side against the case, with about 0.020" shims underneath.

This mod helps deal with huge amounts of rearward thrust that the 4L80E sends to the back of the case.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/23/21 12:46 a.m.

This setup needed a 0.025" shim to get the end play within 0.003-0.008" rollerized end-play. Bearing-Cam (black side DOWN):

TRANS MOD 2: Rollerized Reaction Carrier

This tightens up the reaction carrier (it "floats" and is pretty sloppy), and deals with the forces at the reaction carrier. The factory put a plastic thrust washer there. This should reduce friction, but also plays a role in reducing end play and making the reaction carrier more stable.

The reaction carrier gets machined to fit a TH350 pump bearing (2.875" OD, 0.075" deep):

The pump bearing needed to be clearanced to slip over the sun gear.

This setup needed zero shims to get the end play within 0.002-0.006" with the center support.

TRANS MOD 3: Rollerized Direct Drum

This takes the forces that come through the Direct Drum, and STOPS them at the Center Support. As designed, the forces are applied direction to the Sun Gear Shaft and into the back of the case.

The center support gets machined to fit a TH350 pump bearing (2.875" OD, 2.125" ID, 0.375" deep):

MOD 4 Part 1: Dual-Feed Direct Clutch

GM likes to have a Direct apply piston that is kinda split in half. It's like two concentric circles. One half is used to apply Direct, and the other is used to apply Reverse. By altering the fluid flow in the trans, you can make Direct and Reverse use the entire piston. It does end up applying a bit slower (and more forcibly in Reverse, but you will be ok).

Eagle-eyed viewers will notice the second sealing ring from the top has been removed. This is part of the Dual-Feeding modification. Roughly triples the application force of the Direct clutch.

With respect to Rollerizing the Direct Drum, this setup needed 0.035" shim to get the drum 0.005-0.010" off the bottom:

Everything got installed into the case. Save yourself hours of arguing with the Center Support Snap Ring, and notice that one edge is chamfered. You can thank me later:

TRANS MOD 5: Heavy Duty Intermediate Snap Ring

The factory ones break too easily.

Some say it's from a 727 Torqueflight, mine came in the TransGo kit. You can see the physical difference:

That's as far as I can go until my TH400 direct piston comes in....

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
10/23/21 8:11 a.m.

It's interesting seeing all of the parts from older transmissions that are going into this build. 

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/23/21 10:33 p.m.

TH350 Pump Shim Kit:

With a little Silicon-Bronze TIG action:

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/24/21 8:03 a.m.

I see the word "roller used" but I don't see rollers. I haz a confuse.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/24/21 9:41 a.m.

It's called "rollerizing" but using totally enclosed Torrington bearings, so you won't see anything. In the pic above, you see two TH350 pump shim kits (one still in the package) and two torrington bearings - one silver side up, one black side up.

If you're expecting rollers like wheel bearings, you're mistaken.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/4/21 11:44 p.m.

LONG wait on some parts on the trans, and some misadventure with parts that did arrive.  I'll post more in a bit.  But first:

The rear axle appears to be out of ~1980 Ford Econoline Van.  It has 3.50 gears.

Pumpkin is removed:

Detroit TrueTrac (helical "Torsen" style differential) is purchased:

Timkin carrier bearings are installed:

Ring gear boiled and hot, slipped onto frozen carrier to aid in reassembly:

This is when I discovered the old diff is also a Trac-Loc "clutch" type limited slip (with no "limited," but extra "slip"), and the ring gear bolts are too long. And they look stretched.  So new ARP bolts ordered and installed (ARP recommends 85ft-lbs).

This is a semi-hunting gearset, and the ring and pinion must be "keyed" together. Luckily there are marks:

Diff installed, carrier bearing preload set by turning in the adjuster until you see the outer bearing race just move, then turn each adjuster ONE hole more. Then adjust backlash (spec is 0.010-0.016").  I measured 0.016" when I took it apart, I set it to 0.015" on reassembly. Carrier Bearing caps are torqued to 80ft-lbs.

Now just need a slather of Permatex Ultra Black on the sealing surface, axles in, and some Redline 75W90NS GL5 goes in.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/5/21 12:28 p.m.

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

I meant to ask if it used Torrington rollers. Thanks for clarifying.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/6/21 1:33 a.m.

Direct drum is in.  Forward drum is in.  Pumpkin is in.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/6/21 10:59 p.m.

MOD 6: Dual-Feed Direct Clutch (Part 2)

I removed the center lip seal in the drum, which is part of dual-feeding the Direct apply piston. This removes the separation between the Direct and Reverse sections of the apply piston.

MOD 7: 6-Clutch Direct

Lots of internet opinion between running a TH400 direct piston, vs just keeping the 4L80E bonded piston. I kept the bonded piston, tossed the wave plate, and squeezed in six frictions by using six 0.077" forward steels.  Clearance ended up a perfect 0.060" (0.010" per clutch).

MOD 8: Rollerized Forward Hub

The Direct Drum is pretty sloppily supported. We are going to reduce the slop, and add a Torrington to better support the Drum.

Following Interweb advice....

To do this, the Forward Hub "shoulder" gets machined to fit Ford AOD Torrington bearing (I used 1F1Z-7F404-AA). The "shoulder" is machined down: (bearing thickness) minus (original thrust bushing thickness) minus (about 0.030" clearance reduction), which in my case should have been 0.050", which I thought I initially cut. I may not have.

Now, you also need to know that Direct Drum to Forward Hub clearance should be 0.003-0.008" when rollerized. I'm not exactly sure how to measure this, you can't exactly get a dial indicator in there. Machining the shoulder more, should move the Forward Hub closer to the Direct Drum. With what I had initially cut, there was a noticeable amount of drum-to-hub play. I also ended up with ZERO front end play in the trans.

I don't know if this is correct, but I measured the distance from the Direct Hub to the mainshaft, and got 1.911"

I installed the forward bearing (0.143" thick) and got 1.933"

Again: I don't know what I'm doing.

The difference was 0.022", and in my head it made sense to cut 0.017" more off the Forward Hub (0.005" clearance), which makes NO sense to me right now. But this gave me 0.010" front end play in the trans, which is bang on what I wanted (.005" more than the rear). I hope this works.

NOTE: The 0.050" cut will get you in the ball park.  You really need to assemble the trans and check the Front End play, and machine the shoulder to get the end play where you want it.

Front end play should be 0.002-0.005" GREATER than the rear end play (if you are NOT lifting the output shaft to take up rear end play. If you ARE lifting the output (all output end play is taken up), then I think you need would just want to see 0.002-0.005").

4th clutch installed:

Overdrive installed:

MOD 9: Overdrive Lube Feed

Overdrive lube hole drilled out to 1/8":

MOD 10: Converter Charge Line

Drilling a 0.050" hole provides the converter with charge oil regardless of pressure regulator. This will increase pressure in the converter, and more oil drain back.

MOD 11: Converter Oil Drainback

The existing drain might not be large enough for the increased oil, so we'll drill it out to 1/4".

MOD 12: Pressure Regulator & Boost Valve

This is just remove and replace. I used the one in my TransGo kit. Allegedly Sonnax is more desirable, but my interweb research suggests it really doesn't matter which one you use. This was annoying to install.

Pump installed:

Rear seal inserted ONLY enough to allow the snap ring to snap into place (makes sure oil gets to rear case bushing).

Extension Housing installed.

Next, I'll be getting into the valvebody with some changes.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/7/21 4:26 p.m.

My references for what I'm doing:

Articles taken from Gears Magazine (issues on their website):

4L80-rollerize-output-and-center-support

4L80-rollerize-carrier

Threads referenced for the build:

Bob Is The Oil Guy: 4L80E

Bob Is The Oil Guy: 4L80E Rebuild Questions That Have Not Been Answered

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/10/21 9:18 a.m.
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/10/21 11:45 p.m.

Now things become smoke and mirrors:

Norma66-Brent
Norma66-Brent Reader
11/12/21 12:26 p.m.

I see the inside of transmission and think "man, I never want to do that"

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/12/21 6:44 p.m.

I've done enough transmissions, I'm thinking it could be a lucrative gig in retirement.

Get a truck with a blown trans for near free.  Fix trans.  Profit!

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
11/12/21 7:34 p.m.

Borrowed a friend's kit to re-machine the Actuator Feed Limit valve and insert a new and more wear-resistant valve, a common issue with 4L80E's.

Also ordered up a new Torque Converter Clutch regulator valve as well.  They're cheap, and I'm in there.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
11/12/21 11:27 p.m.

The transmission guy we use is a busy man.

He used to be a transmission specialist at a local Chrysler dealer but he got so busy with side work that he packed up his tools and went home. Now the dealership sends their transmissions to him to be done.

I'm sure there's money in it because he's always got work in the shop.

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