frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/22/19 12:25 p.m.

Woody found a set of raydot mirrors that he bought very well.  He generously offered them to me. I politely thanked him but felt that taking something just to have it without an intended use was the very definition of Greed.  

Except!  All night I was thinking of them and how they could be put to use.  Sometime about O dark thirty I remembered a front engine Stangellini Formula Jr. I knew about.  

Well sorta. It had become a trailering accident and absolutely totaled sometime in the late 1960’s. Anything worth saving was stripped and sold off as parts,  leaving little more than crumpled Aluminum and smashed tubing.  

But I’ve built whole cars with not much more.  That would be cool.  Hmmm!  I wonder...... 

a light little open wheel front engine car.  Maybe a 1300 Alfa engine and gearbox?  Gotta have drum brakes. Preferably aluminum, finned. 13 inch wire wheels,  Borrani’s would be silly expensive but maybe OK to use Dunlops if I bore the centers out like Borranin’s?  

The Chassis would be really simple to weld up. ( not sure I can do the sloppy welds they did originally.  Maybe good welds and goober over them a little.  

I’ve got some of my aluminum working stuff still. My leather bound sand bag. most of my hammers. The English wheel is back. 

No old Cinzano  aluminum signs to turn into body work like they originally did but I go to my scrap metal place and see what I can find.  

Hmmmm maybe I should contact Woody and see if the offer still stands.  Seems like I should offer him a drive for the motivation.  See Woody, no good deed goes unpunished 

Woody
Woody MegaDork
9/22/19 1:43 p.m.

I fully support this plan!

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
9/22/19 2:23 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Your aluminum working equipment is too far advanced. The Italians have not discovered the "wheel".

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/22/19 4:17 p.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

It’s because I cannot find the right wood to make the proper tree stump from. 

I realize the true afficiando will be deeply offended by  the use of an English wheel instead of a tree stump.  However lacking a proper Italian vocabulary including gestures what can you expect from a ignorant damn Yankee. 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/22/19 4:25 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

OK the Formula Junior idea was simple production car parts with an engine no bigger than 1000 cc . But there isn’t a racing car left in the world that hasn’t replaced the 948cc Austin motor with a 1275. And the 1300 cc of an Alfa seems more proper than a  British engine .

Same thing with wheels. The original rules called for steel sedan wheels but I’ve never seen a restored Stangalini  without Borrani wire wheels. 

On the other hand, this is GRM and the answer to all things GRM is Miata.  Convert the fuel rejection to carbs,  OK Weber’s for the purists 

I wonder how long a Miata engine is from the water pump to the end of the tailshaft?  Maybe do a lay down arrangement like the Offies? 

Hmmmm ?  

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
9/22/19 10:59 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

If you lay it down you save a lot of trouble by keeping the injection, and you need to because the Fiat engine was not tall. Alfa would probably be a better fit. I had a Taraschi (inherited from dad) that used the same Fiat 1100 and Borrani wheels as a Stanguelini. The Fiat 1100TV gearbox was pretty long, so overall length to the drive shaft should work OK. Stanguelini live axle is the weak link here. Wheels were free in original F.Jr. rules too.

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/23/19 6:35 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

The advantage of a lay down is you can get the driveshaft along side of you instead of having to sit above it.  But then I’m not sure I can keep the body lines correct. 

Edit:  the Stanguelini was a lay down ! At least a 45degree laydown  which should make it much easier to do than Offy’s  which required an additional pump  because they were laid down flat.  

I didn’t realize that Stanguelini cast his own blocks in aluminum and even a DOHC head out of aluminum both in the 750cc and 1100 cc size  

But hey,  since it really wouldn’t be a be Stanguelini would that really matter? I doubt such a creation would be allowed in Vintage.  

What do you think? 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
9/23/19 7:36 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

The OHC Stanguelinis all pre dated F.Jr. The common Stang juniors had an upright engine that was angle about 20 degrees in plan view, and the drive shaft and shift lever passed to the right of the driver. There were a few variations in the latest cars, including a rear engine car, the Delfino at the very end. The original fiat 1100 pushrod engine is probably a better choice than the earlier Stang, DOHC unit, far more available, but still relatively a hand grenade compared to an Alfa or a Mazda. Many of the fiat components in a Stanguelini were still in production in India (Padmini) well into this century. The Borrani wheels used a bolt on hub spline ala Triumph, but with 4X98mm bolt circle, so more common cheaper wheels are relatively easy. I think an Alfa 1300 powered car should (my opinion) be allowed in vintage, because they were certainly contemplated, if not built when the cars were new. Stanguelini built a lot of juniors, close to 200 if my source is to be believed, so lots of mods happened early on. Especially since they were obsolete on the showroom floor in late 1959. Check etceterini.com for more info and links.

Woody
Woody MegaDork
9/23/19 7:51 a.m.

I am learning so much from you guys! Many thanks!

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/23/19 8:23 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

I like the idea of a front engine Formula Junior  the chassis would be extremely simple to weld up and I bet bare would weigh about  50 pounds.  

The easy button would be make a foam body. Cover it with bondo and pull a mold from it. Miata running gear and  you’re off to the races.  

 

RoddyMac17
RoddyMac17 Reader
9/24/19 4:50 p.m.

This reminds me of an email thread from nearly a decade ago, I had tentatively sold some Lotus Eleven panels (GRP) to a guy who had a lead on a Stang.  Lo and behold, I found one of the pics:

I have no clue what the story was with it, nor if it was ever restored.  But it does give a good idea of the layout (and offset motor placement and rear axle).

Years ago I helped with the restoration of a Ryetune Scorpion that was once piloted by some guy named Rodriguez, it originally had a DKW motor, but had been converted to an A-series.  The driveshaft passed under the drivers seat and there was a gearbox to bring the drive back up to the diff.  The straight cut gears in the box howled, and I often have wondered how hard it would be to convert the 'box to a gilmer belt type arrangement.  If motor cylces can use a toothed rubber belt, why couldn't a low powered front engined single seater.

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/24/19 5:10 p.m.

In reply to RoddyMac17 : As long as the angles of the U joints cancel each other out and don’t exceed allowable angle there won’t be a problem except with weight balance  depending on how offset and how heavy the driver is that may work out too 

 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
9/24/19 10:22 p.m.

In reply to RoddyMac17 :

What was the serial number on the Scorpion you worked on??? I owned two of them ,#2 and #3 both basket cases, and sold as a package to Frank Stark from western PA in about 1986 100S3EX was was BMC converted, and 100S4EX  was still DKW, but the chassis was totally rusted through, and the Deke was broken. Roger Dunbar's Elva site and Formula Junior.com have more info, they were really Elvas. They made 14...The Gilmer belt idea has real merit. I never had an Elva drop rear set apart, but recently worked on a similar piece from a Gemini that had 3 gears in it to keep direction, terrible power waster.

RoddyMac17
RoddyMac17 Reader
9/25/19 9:17 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Honestly, I have no idea.  I do know it was the car Pedro drove, and it ended up in the hands of Laurie Fraser here in the Vancouver area.  My friend Dave Ledlin did the bulk of the work on it roughly 10 years ago.  Laurie never drove it, Dave did some "exhibition laps" with it at the local Historic Races, and Laurie ended up selling it about 5 years ago.  Dave told me once where it went, but for the life of me, I can't remember.

The drop gear casing on the Ryetune was cracked, so our local machinist fabricated a new one from billet aluminium, which got me thinking about the belt drive.  One bonus of a belt drive would be the ability to swap out the pulleys/gears for different sizes allowing for a rear axle ratio change without having to touch the diff.  But, I don't think the FIA would allow it for their events.

And yes, I learned all about the Elva/Ryetune saga when the car was being restored.  But I can't recall if Dave ground off the Elva logo cast into the new wheels that were bought for the car.

 

 

 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
9/25/19 12:05 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

So what is the typical selling price of a rusty but running Miata ? Or smashed up, dented . Theft recovery. 

All  I’d really need is a running engine/ transmission and rear end. 

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