frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/17/17 11:44 p.m.

I just picked up a nice Southern California Jaguar XJ-S V12 that the original owner gave up on after a decade. Now I have all the bits and pieces sitting in the shop to quickly reassemble the original engine which smart money tells me is the only thing I should consider doing.

However I've also got a later 6.0 V12, 4 speed overdrive transmission, and later outboard brakes IRS that would slide in with about the same amount of work. The 6.0 V12 is much more reliable (and a little more powerful while being a shade more fuel stingy) than the early 5.3 engine. The later transmission with overdrive is the prime reason it's more efficient.. and if you've ever worked on the inboard rear brakes you'll appreciate that benefit..

The experts tell me I won't be able to sell a 6.0 V12 in a Jag that originally came with a 5.3 If I do it won't be 1/3 the price I should expect to sell an Original 5.3 equipped one for.

OK tossing a Chevy lump in there can and does devalue the car. but a Jag in a Jag?

TrulySpooky
TrulySpooky New Reader
2/18/17 1:53 a.m.

I believe because it's hard to find. And that anyone could do aftermarket things? Idk I buy cars to drive them, so aftermarket isn't a deal breaker, because it will usually hold up better.

HappyAndy
HappyAndy PowerDork
2/18/17 6:45 a.m.

If you're out to flip the car, and keeping it original is possible/cost effective, that's the best way.

If it's your driver, do what you want and don't give a flying berkeley what so called experts tell you.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair UltimaDork
2/18/17 6:47 a.m.

Documented work with objective before and after data can reduce the devaluation, but in the end, non-original means someone has had it apart, and who knows whether or not that person knew WTF they were doing, did they use good parts and processes, etc.

impster
impster Reader
2/18/17 7:05 a.m.

I'm w/ HappyAndy. I'm putting a '95 XJS drivetrain in my Series 2 XJC so that I can drive it and enjoy it. I'm in my 60s and I'll likely be dead and gone before my coupe is worth serious money. So between now and then, I'm going to drive it like I stole it, using it for road trips and taking part in driving events, going cross country if need be and enjoying the reliability and comfort of a modern power plant.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
2/18/17 7:53 a.m.

I can't believe that an older Jag XJ-S V12, beautiful as it is, is worth much in unmolested condition anyway. A pristine mid-80s car is what? $5-10k? That same car with a newer motor and bigger brakes certainly isn't worth any more but probably not a whole lot less either.

I'd say if you want to drive it - make it how you like. If you want to flip it do as little work as possible and get rid of it.

RossD
RossD UltimaDork
2/18/17 8:22 a.m.
Huckleberry wrote: I can't believe that an older Jag XJ-S V12, beautiful as it is, is worth much in unmolested condition anyway. A pristine mid-80s car is what? $5-10k? That same car with a newer motor and bigger brakes certainly isn't worth any more but probably not a whole lot less either. I'd say if you want to drive it - make it how you like. If you want to flip it do as little work as possible and get rid of it.

This all day long.

Also only asking one kind of expert, you will only get one kind of answer.

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/18/17 9:02 a.m.
HappyAndy wrote: If you're out to flip the car, and keeping it original is possible/cost effective, that's the best way. If it's your driver, do what you want and don't give a flying berkeley what so called experts tell you.

I'm nearing 69 and in all likelihood this will be my last project car. While it's tempting to build it for my own pleasure and ignore the resale value. I'm starting to see too many of my old friends leave family members to attempt to deal with the disposal of their hobbies..

Recently I learned of two widows left with projects unfinished (One boat, one plane) that were given away to settle the storage fees. In both cases serious funds were spent prior to the owners passing.

Having said that I don't want to sit in a rocking chair until they start digging my grave either.. I've done my research and according to insurance actuarial tables I have about 15 years left. What those don't say is how much harder it is to work now than even 5 years ago.. In my 40's and 50's I could work non-stop for two or three nights prior to a race, then drive all night to get to the track. Get a few hours of sleep before registration opened and race all weekend..

Bottom line? Why can't I have my cake and eat it too?

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/18/17 9:05 a.m.
TrulySpooky wrote: I believe because it's hard to find. And that anyone could do aftermarket things? Idk I buy cars to drive them, so aftermarket isn't a deal breaker, because it will usually hold up better.

Jaguar built the 6.0 V12 from 1992 to 1997 so it's not really aftermarket, simply an update of the important mechanical bits. But no, the numbers wouldn't match and apparently that's what is most important to value..

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/18/17 9:13 a.m.
impster wrote: I'm w/ HappyAndy. I'm putting a '95 XJS drivetrain in my Series 2 XJC so that I can drive it and enjoy it. I'm in my 60s and I'll likely be dead and gone before my coupe is worth serious money. So between now and then, I'm going to drive it like I stole it, using it for road trips and taking part in driving events, going cross country if need be and enjoying the reliability and comfort of a modern power plant. </blockquote; That's exactly why I'd do it too. But as for serious money, The Coupes command more than the 4 doors and condition determines price.. I've seen really nice V12 coupes sell for decent money and as long as the economy remains strong prices for Coupes should continue to grow.. Look at MK9's sedan's. Nice examples went begging for buyers with prices under $3000 just a decade ago. Now I see them regularly selling for $30,000+ It shouldn't be all that long before your Coupe is at those numbers..
Motage
Motage New Reader
2/18/17 5:53 p.m.

I bought my 86 XJS with the intention of pulling the the engine to use in a custom wide body E type I'm building. The engine had 2 dead cylinders. It needed fresh gas and spark plugs, runs like a dream now. Response torque looks! I like so much, that I found another engine!

Assemble yours however you want and enjoy!

grover
grover New Reader
2/18/17 7:12 p.m.

I really think it depends. If you can show WHY you put the other bits on, and their advantage over original parts, while still keeping the original parts to be put back on by the next owner if they choose....then I don't think you lose much- and in fact you may have something to gain. Documentation is the key to real value in any build.

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 HalfDork
2/19/17 5:23 p.m.

Given your situation, I'd build it the way you want it. I might be a selfish jerk, but in my opinion, it is totally reasonable to build the car you want now (and document as others have suggested) and you and/or your family can cross the resale bridge if/when it becomes time to sell.

In some ways this reminds me of the questions around kitchen remodel in my old house. I am 6'2", and among other issues, wanted to bring the kitchen counter up about two inches. All the experts advised against doing it because if/when it came time to sell the house, if a potential buyer was looking for nits to pick, it could impact resale value. I had to blink a few times..."You're telling me I should sacrifice years worth of my enjoyment of my own kitchen (not to mention my lower back) on the off chance the next schmuck to buy this place might feel a little insecure with their purchase?" I think trading all of your todays for someone else's potential tomorrow is not the best way to see the world.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn UltimaDork
2/19/17 6:24 p.m.
ae86andkp61 wrote: In some ways this reminds me of the questions around kitchen remodel in my old house. I am 6'2", and among other issues, wanted to bring the kitchen counter up about two inches. All the experts advised against doing it because if/when it came time to sell the house, if a potential buyer was looking for nits to pick, it could impact resale value.

Years ago, my old college roommate was shopping for a house. He's 6'5", and the house he bought had been built by someone who was about as tall so the counters were higher, the shower head in the bathroom was higher, etc. The morale of the story is there's always going to be a buyer out there.

Back to Frenchy's question - I don't think the suggested modifications are going to hurt since they improve the car using factory parts. It's not like you're dropping in a small block Chevy and putting 20" wheels on it.

wspohn
wspohn HalfDork
2/20/17 1:55 p.m.

Matching numbers make a big difference to an XK but shouldn't affect an XJS much at all - almost no one wants them for concours anyway.

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke SuperDork
2/20/17 2:17 p.m.

Build the car for you! Since the newer engine will be more reliable you can maximize your driving and enjoyment with the time you have left with the car.

ronbros9
ronbros9 New Reader
2/20/17 7:23 p.m.

it still does not give a realistic logical answer to the OPs question!

why is original more valuable than an old car?

so who controls the market on old cars??????? realisticly an old car is just old junk, but some people convince others that its valuable!

is it hypnotic control?

why do car guys fall into the trap of such BS?

dculberson
dculberson PowerDork
2/20/17 7:57 p.m.

In reply to ronbros9:

Because frankly most people suck at modifying cars and you end up with a Frankenstein monster of mismatched parts and bad behaviors with impossible to source replacements. If you have a numbers matching car you know exactly what to get when a part fails. It also drives just like it was meant to - when in good repair. No such guarantees if Cletus has been mucking around with every last system on the car.

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 HalfDork
2/20/17 8:12 p.m.

In reply to ronbros9:

Think of the worst self-taught berkeleyup of a home mechanic you can imagine, and how badly he/she could mess up a drivetrain swap. Although the difference in the standard of workmanship and the difference in the end result between frenchyd and the aforementioned berkeleyup might be huge, it is hard to assure potential buyers of the difference, hence the diminished value for modified.

The Idea that there is always a market brings up a few related questions that might help with the eventual sale of frenchyd's car. What is the best target audience for a restomod car? Is it GRM? Maybe a ProTouring type autocross crowd, or would they want a Chevy LS in it? What is the worst target audience? Hemmings subscribers? Perhaps a marque club focused on car shows? I don't know, but I think it is interesting to think about.

TR8owner
TR8owner HalfDork
2/21/17 4:07 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd:

Original has never been worth more to me as virtually every classic I ever owned has been improved. (Note that I say improved and not modified.) But I've never bought a car for an investment, but to enjoy. I'm in a similar boat to you. My next TR8 engine will be an improved 4.0 rather than the 3.5. If I had a Ferrari 250 GTO I'd probably not try to improve it, but with a XJ-S or TR8 who cares as neither of these cars could finance our retirements. So why not just enjoy them.

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/23/17 4:09 a.m.
wspohn wrote: Matching numbers make a big difference to an XK but shouldn't affect an XJS much at all - almost no one wants them for concours anyway.

I've owned many Jaguars over the years and I always felt I bought them cheaply enough that updating a series 1 XK-E with the later 4.2 instead of it's original 3.8 was an upgrade I'd enjoy.. Until I was forced to sell. Then the sin of upgrading devalued it by such a significant amount you'd think I'd put a small block Chevy in.. It wasn't just one or two buyers, rather nearly everyone focused on the numbers on the engine rather than how well it ran.

I'm finally at an age when I accept my own mortality and realize at best I am the temporary custodian of it..

Jaguar XJ-S are far more rare than XK-E's!!! One year fewer than a 1000 were made and until 1981 with the "upgrade" to H.E. production never approached break-even.. Please note the quotes around upgrade. Performance downgrade is more accurate. When Jaguar copied the early Chevy six fireball combustion chamber all they did was clean up emissions enough to meet California's pollution laws. They really killed any performance potential.. Oh sure Jaguar had to meet those laws considering how much of Jaguar's production wound up there.

The better fuel mileage was a direct result of going from a 7.8-1 combustion ratio to an 11.5 ratio and a taller final drive. All racing Jaguar V12's used a version of the earlier head. The poor flow characteristics of the H.E. head compared to the earlier "flathead" pretty well limits that to a max of around 450 horsepower while the earlier head hadn't met it's limits at 750 horsepower.

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/23/17 4:18 a.m.
ae86andkp61 wrote: In reply to ronbros9: Think of the worst self-taught berkeleyup of a home mechanic you can imagine, and how badly he/she could mess up a drivetrain swap. Although the difference in the standard of workmanship and the difference in the end result between frenchyd and the aforementioned berkeleyup might be huge, it is hard to assure potential buyers of the difference, hence the diminished value for modified.

You have a valid point.. Any upgrade requires the future buyer to understand more than just reading the manual (or hauling it to a shop) Webers for example are worth about 15 real horsepower over the stock S.U's but because they are more complex than the simple S.U.'s cause fear in a lot of buyers.. and as we all know, fear of the unknown is worth a great deal more than the promise of gain..

frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
2/23/17 4:26 a.m.
dculberson wrote: In reply to ronbros9: Because frankly most people suck at modifying cars and you end up with a Frankenstein monster of mismatched parts and bad behaviors with impossible to source replacements. If you have a numbers matching car you know exactly what to get when a part fails. It also drives just like it was meant to - when in good repair. No such guarantees if Cletus has been mucking around with every last system on the car.

But if Cletus has been mucking around, even a numbers matching car will run like Cletus has been mucking around in it..

You do have a valid point about impossible to source parts.. Well except for some things like superchargers.. Somehow T series MG owners can always find a way to repair even weird and rare bits and pieces like Italmechanica, Wade, or Judson supercharger's. And they make the car more valuable.

There is a market for Old rare Ford Model A heads and other unique bits and pieces of performance improvements..

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