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carguy123
carguy123 UltimaDork
8/12/13 11:03 p.m.

I mean Aero-master. A kit LMP car

From Bulgaria

Some YouTube http://www.youtube.com/user/AutomotiveCNC?feature=watch

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH UltimaDork
8/13/13 7:37 a.m.

My grassroots-sense is tingling!

It tells me that gearbox is far from grassroots-priced.

nocones
nocones SuperDork
8/13/13 8:24 a.m.

Depending on engine type something that light with ~300hp should be able to get away with the VW/Audi FWD trans from Passats/A4's. There is also the Subaru option.

I do like the Video showing it doing incredibly fast things...

Could anyone find pictures of the frame? My browser doesn't like their Bulgarian gallery

pinchvalve
pinchvalve UltimaDork
8/13/13 8:40 a.m.

Miata based?

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe Dork
8/13/13 11:18 a.m.
nocones wrote: Depending on engine type something that light with ~300hp should be able to get away with the VW/Audi FWD trans from Passats/A4's. There is also the Subaru option. I do like the Video showing it doing incredibly fast things... Could anyone find pictures of the frame? My browser doesn't like their Bulgarian gallery

Square frame with triangulation. Pretty standard stuff. Not much room on the inside for a human but plenty of space for racecar.

yamaha
yamaha PowerDork
8/13/13 12:13 p.m.

Looks fun, and a porsche transaxle should be adaptable to this....

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH UltimaDork
8/13/13 12:17 p.m.

A Porsche transaxle isn't a whole lot cheaper than the Ricardo or Hewland or whatever that costly-looking thing the car in the video has.

Only an Audi or Subie box would be affordable.

Protege2886
Protege2886 Reader
8/13/13 12:31 p.m.

This reminds me of that Bentley-homage LMP project from Sweden that Adrian posted in the "Insane builds" thread.

jpnovak
jpnovak New Reader
8/13/13 12:34 p.m.

So, tick all the boxes and convert from Euro to Dollar and you get an LMP kit for $20K. not much mention of what drivetrains are compatible. I assume that its "make something fit" since there is plenty of room between the tubes.

V8 with a sequential transmission would be tons of fun. I wonder if you could make it street legal.

slowride
slowride Reader
8/13/13 12:41 p.m.

Frame pics

yamaha
yamaha PowerDork
8/13/13 12:55 p.m.

In reply to jpnovak:

Claim the windshield is safety glass and add turn signals and you'd be in business

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
8/13/13 1:10 p.m.
GameboyRMH wrote: My grassroots-sense is tingling! It tells me that gearbox is far from grassroots-priced.

Sir, your "Grassroots-sense" is misguided. Grassroots does not = inexpensive

turboswede
turboswede PowerDork
8/13/13 1:22 p.m.
Joe Gearin wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote: My grassroots-sense is tingling! It tells me that gearbox is far from grassroots-priced.
Sir, your "Grassroots-sense" is misguided. Grassroots does not = inexpensive

Says the guy working for a magazine that does a yearly contest for vehicles built for under around $2000.00. Methinks you protest too much.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH UltimaDork
8/13/13 1:33 p.m.

I come for the tips on racing on a working man's budget, that's what I know

That, and that the transaxle in the vid costs somewhere between a new sportbike and a new midsize sedan

nocones
nocones SuperDork
8/13/13 1:43 p.m.

That frame looks about how I thought it would.

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
8/13/13 1:51 p.m.
nocones wrote: That frame looks about how I thought it would.

I assume you're talking about the open end on the square tubing? I spotted that, too

Seriously, how long does it take to weld those off before taking your photos?

This reminds me of my trailer construction rant. (TL, DR version: after you learn how to make stuff, you quickly discover that most of the people who make stuff for a living do a mediocre job.)

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
8/13/13 2:01 p.m.
turboswede wrote:
Joe Gearin wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote: My grassroots-sense is tingling! It tells me that gearbox is far from grassroots-priced.
Sir, your "Grassroots-sense" is misguided. Grassroots does not = inexpensive
Says the guy working for a magazine that does a yearly contest for vehicles built for under around $2000.00. Methinks you protest too much.

Nope. He's quoting the official party line. We internet cheapskates occasionally need to be reminded that the magazine has some fairly affluent readers, that GRM also sponsors high dollar events (e.g. the "what budget?" UTCC), and that ANY situation where the underdog does more with less than the big boys could be considered "grassroots."

I still prefer the cheapskate stuff, but I'm one of those tightwad forum users, and not representative of the general readership.

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
8/13/13 2:22 p.m.

Joey M hit it on the head.

While we do welcome bargain fixes and love the $200x Challenge---- being cheap is not at the core of GRM.

If a guy has been reading GRM for 20 years and done well for himself and now he's tracking his Viper instead of his Civic--- is he less Grassroots? Hell NO!

We welcome all folks that share an interest in ingenuity and making the most out of what you have available. It just so happens that some folks have more available than others.

We (me) get a little touchy as we've had to reinforce this to potential advertisers who get the mistaken idea that our readers are cheap.

This just isn't true. Our readers buy a TON of stuff, and our advertisers do very well because of this. Sometimes perception is hard to break though.........so we try to nip it in the bud.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
8/13/13 2:39 p.m.

I buy a ton of stuff even though I'm low-budget. I just have an unhealthy income to car expenditure ratio

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
8/13/13 3:38 p.m.
Joe Gearin wrote: Our readers buy a TON of stuff, and our advertisers do very well because of this. Sometimes perception is hard to break though.........so we try to nip it in the bud.

Here's the deal that a lot of people don't get. Playing with cars - even cheap ones - involves real money. S:S:L's article on the cost of racing said this about rent-and-race ITA/ITB participation: http://www.speedsportlife.com/2009/03/27/avoidable-contact-25-exploring-the-pyramid-of-speed-the-real-costs-and-stories-behind-entry-level-sedan-racing/

In the real world, by the time you drive to a race, stay in a hotel, eat a meal or two, pay your entry fee (which is a minimum of $250 most places) and buy a T-shirt, you’re going to spend a minimum of $1500 to go Improved Touring racing in someone else’s car. Let’s put that in perspective: racing an old VW Golf or Honda Civic once a month costs as much as buying a Nissan GT-R or Porsche Cayman S on a five-year loan.

Yes, the article covers other, cheaper options, too

nocones
nocones SuperDork
8/13/13 7:41 p.m.

Lets see the short list from those Pictures?

Uncapped tubes indicating poor node design (Suprising given some of the nice welds and tube joint work)
Upper rear a-arm mounts horribly unsupported
Rear Toe Link chassis side mounts mid tube and not in ideal location for bumpsteer (Ridiculous to have these anywhere but in a good location in the REAR!)
Front lower control arm rear link chassis mount not a node, no reinforcement (This link takes MOST of the cornering force and Braking force)
Main roll hoop no diagonal and no fore/aft reinforcement
No tie in of side impact to roll structure
Front roll hoop does not terminate in a Node
Roll hoop welded directly to the chassis rails without load spreading plates, gussets, or any kind of reinforcement at all

The front suspension geometry seems very strange with the lower links being very not parallel to the centerline of the car when viewed from above. They may have designed this in for a reason but it's hard to say.

I'm not meaning to pile on here there is some stuff they did really well. The general design of the A-arms seems excellent. The welding quality looks great, tube fitting seems very square and tight. Their Chassis mounts are works of art and the uprights look very stout and pretty well designed. The completed car also looks fantastic. It's possible the suspension design is completely worked out and handles very nice just from what can be seen of the geometry I'm doubtful.

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
8/13/13 8:09 p.m.

You have a better eye for this than me....I missed a lot of that. (In my defense, I just glanced at the pics, didn't study them....but you still saw more than I would.)

the funny part is that one of the things that you liked I disliked. You said, "the uprights look very stout and pretty well designed", while I was thinking, "Holy unsprung weight!!"

AeroM
AeroM None
9/1/13 3:17 a.m.

Hello guys,

I'm the chassis designer of Aeromaster LMP, and below I will try to explain some of the things you mentioned in this topic regarding the chassis and suspension design. Hopefully this will make it a bit more clear why I did some of the features reffered as to "flaws" here.

Uncapped tubes indicating poor node design (Suprising given some of the nice welds and tube joint work)

Obviously, those photos shown of the bare chassis are taken during early stage of the build. You can see that most tubes are temporarily welded with spots only to barely keep them in place, before final check of dimensions and applying of full welds. The chassis is designed with all caps on place.

Upper rear a-arm mounts horribly unsupported

There must be two X-braces bolted - above the engine and above the transmission, respectivelly. If you watch the video with my 3d chassis design here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0s21_V28B8) you will notice that at each side there is one hole next to the back rod end of the rear upper control arm, plus uncapped tube next to the front rod end of the upper control arm, leaved there to allow welding of mounting plate to connect together the two X-braces I mentioned above. This is easily recognizable at 2:30 min. of the video. Both X-braces are not shown on the video as at the time I designed the chassis it was still unclear which engine and transmission combo will be used on the running prototype, and these are added later "designed by eye" as I didn't had a referecen of the exact dimensions of the engine. Now that there is already PRV engine installed, and AUDI engine installation is in the works, all next chassis supplied to customers will have two types of X-braces properly designed in CAD, depending on which engine is chosen.

Rear Toe Link chassis side mounts mid tube and not in ideal location for bumpsteer (Ridiculous to have these anywhere but in a good location in the REAR!)

English is not my native language, but I think that "rear toe link" is probably what you call the 3rd link of the rear suspension that keeps the rear wheel in straight direction. If that's correct, then let me say that the square tube used there (30 x 30 x 2 mm) has much higher resistance to bending in this direction than a round tube with same diameter or weight. Probably you heard of the issues some Ariel Atom owners had with bent tubes after sudden acceleration, result of the use of round tube to mount the rear upper control arm. This will not happen on the aeromaster LMP due to two reasons:

  • Use of square tube.

  • Stress on that link is much lower than the stress taken by the two control arms.

Front lower control arm rear link chassis mount not a node, no reinforcement (This link takes MOST of the cornering force and Braking force)

The chassis is designed to use welded 2 mm thick steel sheets on the floor (5 mm below the upper side of the floor, separate small sheets between the floor tubes), and 1 mm thick sheets all around the cockpit area (again, separate small sheets between tubes). This pretty much makes the area next to the front lower control arm invulnerable even to extreme to braking forces.

Main roll hoop no diagonal and no fore/aft reinforcement

The X-brace I designed was not used there by request to leave as mush space as possible inside the cabin as the company owner is tall and was worried that it will be too tight to fit inside. But after the car was assembled, it didn't took long to figure out there is plenty of room inside even for taller people, and so the X-brace will be used on all next chassis. It was not included in the running prototype as its body was already attached. The same refers to the X-brace on the roof, that's also not used in the first car. Personally I'm obsessed with doing everything extra strong, and you can see plenty of X-braces in the buggy chassis of Aeromaster sports cars, which is the company's secont project currently in development.

No tie in of side impact to roll structure

I'm afraid that I can't understand what is the thing you described. Could you draw a simple picture, please? I may be able to explain if I have a better idea of what we are talking about.

Front roll hoop does not terminate in a Node

It's only 40 mm away from a very strong node where the tubes create 3 triangles. There is also a metal plate behind (not show on the video but used on the running prototype).

Roll hoop welded directly to the chassis rails without load spreading plates, gussets, or any kind of reinforcement at all

As the tubes are squre and renforced with separate small steel sheets in between (not large sheets next to the tubes), this all provides plenty of load capacity.

The front suspension geometry seems very strange with the lower links being very not parallel to the centerline of the car when viewed from above. They may have designed this in for a reason but it's hard to say.

The front control arms were designed this way due to three main reasons:

  • Cars don't roll along their longitudinal axis during high-speed cornering. Instead, they will roll diagonally, and so, it's better to use diagonal axis and inequal lenght for both front control arms.

  • This also redirects a large portion of the stress taken by the back rod end of the front lower control arm towards the lenght of its tube.

  • This control arm design follows the vedge-shaped body of the original Bentley Speed 8.

PS: By the way, there is an updated version of the chassis I design right now, called "Pro chassis". I mentioned it at the "About" text below my YouTube video. It will be slightly stronger, will come with X-brace above the engine designed to accommodate AUDI unit, and totally revised suspension able to take much higher loads.

AeroM
AeroM New Reader
9/1/13 3:40 a.m.

As for the wheel hubs being "Holy unsprung weight!!", I prefer to be double-sure they will be strong rather than make them weak. I forgot how much they weighted, but it's by nomeans close to what they look on pictures. After all, they are not solid metal piece but created mainly of 5 mm thick steel plates, with the steering plate being 10 mm thick.

Sorry that I reply in a new post. I see only "Quote" and "Reply" buttons.

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
9/1/13 3:59 a.m.
AeroM wrote: As for the wheel hubs being "Holy unsprung weight!!", I prefer to be double-sure they will be strong rather than make them weak. I forgot how much they weighted, but it's by nomeans close to what they look on pictures. After all, they are not solid metal piece but created mainly of 5 mm thick steel plates, with the steering plate being 10 mm thick. Sorry that I reply in a new post. I see only "Quote" and "Reply" buttons.

You were obviously replying to me here, so I'll be the first to say, "Welcome!" You might as well create a build thread while you are here and use it to keep people aware of what's happening with your creation. There are obviously some people here who are very interested in what you are doing.

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