codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/11/24 2:00 p.m.

https://racingnews365.com/why-red-bull-knowingly-collected-grid-penalty-to-protect-verstappen

F1's penalty system is broken.  Sometime in the last decade or so they got much, much more lenient with penalties, to the point where people are regularly making decisions based on the calculation of how much benefit they get from breaking the rules and taking the penalty, and if the benefit is greater then they go ahead.

Old man shouting at clouds, but it didn't used to be this way.  "leaving the track and gaining an advantage" used to a be a drive-through penalty that had to be served within 2 laps, there was no way that you were making up enough time by breaking that rule to overcome it, unlike the 5 (OK, recently 10) second penalties they have now.

IMHO, a team intentionally ignoring safety rules in order to gain a competitive advantage for the other car ought to disqualify both cars from that race at a minimum.  There should never be a case where you come out ahead by taking a penalty.

 

 

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
6/11/24 3:45 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

What he said wasn't really wrong though.

Not at all but what makes him a Putz is the way he went about it. Lest he forget he was in a Sauber that did not suit him and the team wouldn't take his feedback. He has no clue what what inside the teams Ricciardo drives/drove for.

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/11/24 4:14 p.m.

I don't think Jacques was ever a PR person's dream :)

RB is certainly making a lot of noise about how they're building the car around Ricciardo. But Danny's been through RB, Renault and McLaren before ending up at Alpha Tauri/VCARB. At some point, you have to start looking at the common factor.

Advan046
Advan046 UberDork
6/11/24 8:41 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I must have fast forwarded through that. If it was really that dangerous then I do agree with exclusion from the event results. 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltimaDork
6/11/24 10:38 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I don't think Jacques was ever a PR person's dream :)

RB is certainly making a lot of noise about how they're building the car around Ricciardo. But Danny's been through RB, Renault and McLaren before ending up at Alpha Tauri/VCARB. At some point, you have to start looking at the common factor.

He won with both RB and mclaren.  Had at least one podium with renault.

That being said, I don't think he is f1 material anymore.  I want him to be... 

I think he is very fast with a particular setup.  Outside of that narrow range, he kinda sucks.

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
6/12/24 12:00 a.m.
wvumtnbkr said:

He won with both RB and mclaren.  Had at least one podium with renault.

That being said, I don't think he is f1 material anymore.  I want him to be... 

I think he is very fast with a particular setup.  Outside of that narrow range, he kinda sucks.

This is true of many many drivers. Jenson Button comes to mind as one needing a particular style.

Schumacher's team mates who drive his back up car commented that they oversteered wildly.

We never know what is going inside the team and the drivers aren't likely to advertise what the issue is.

 

 

trigun7469
trigun7469 UltraDork
6/12/24 8:30 a.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Historically this is what F1 does, they make a rule weak so teams can just exploit it. The days of the lead driver hopping into the car mid-race might be over (maybe except for Albon), but making a team member the sacrificial lamb is what F1 has always done, whether it's a penalty, teammate holding up the train, or even giving the call to the B-team to get out of the way. Perez may become the best teammate in the game.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltimaDork
6/12/24 8:36 a.m.

In reply to trigun7469 :

Not sure about him becoming the best team mate...  he wouldn't have needed to try to avoid a safety car if he didn't back it into a wall...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/12/24 10:11 a.m.
trigun7469 said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Historically this is what F1 does, they make a rule weak so teams can just exploit it. The days of the lead driver hopping into the car mid-race might be over (maybe except for Albon), but making a team member the sacrificial lamb is what F1 has always done, whether it's a penalty, teammate holding up the train, or even giving the call to the B-team to get out of the way. Perez may become the best teammate in the game.

I don't think the complaint is about Perez taking a penalty and being sacrificed, it's that the penalty was for a safety violation. That's different than, say, ignoring blue flags to hold up a charging challenger or exceeding track limits to go faster. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/12/24 10:21 a.m.
Tom1200 said:
wvumtnbkr said:

He won with both RB and mclaren.  Had at least one podium with renault.

That being said, I don't think he is f1 material anymore.  I want him to be... 

I think he is very fast with a particular setup.  Outside of that narrow range, he kinda sucks.

This is true of many many drivers. Jenson Button comes to mind as one needing a particular style.

Schumacher's team mates who drive his back up car commented that they oversteered wildly.

We never know what is going inside the team and the drivers aren't likely to advertise what the issue is.

 

I know if you give me a car with ev

As the lead driver of at least three teams, though, Danny should have been able to set up the car to suit his driving style. So either he's not good at setup or every team ignores him for setup. After a while, you have to start thinking it's maybe the former. His most successful season was when he was driving a car set up by Vettel.

He's great from a PR standpoint, everyone loves Daniel. But he just can't seem to recapture that flash of talent he showed in his first year of Red Bull.

CrashDummy
CrashDummy Reader
6/12/24 11:47 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

He's great from a PR standpoint, everyone loves Daniel. But he just can't seem to recapture that flash of talent he showed in his first year of Red Bull.

I think that undersells Danny a little bit. He had a really good run from 2014-2020 where he was generally winning races and/or outscoring his teammate. He finished a very solid 5th in the championship for Renault in 2020. It was really just 2021-2022 where he looked really bad, although he also hasn't been great in his return to Visa Cash App Taco Bell Coca Cola Racing in Association with RedBull Energy Drinks Fasion presented by Rolex or whatever that team is called this week. They wanted him to replace Perez. He hasn't been good enough to do that but he also hasn't been bad enough to get fired from RB. 

trigun7469
trigun7469 UltraDork
6/13/24 8:05 a.m.

There is no one outside of the car that is as likable as DanRic, honestly most are easily hateable. If Liam Lawson wasn't waiting in the wings there were be a lot less pressure and discussion. I am sure like many other sports that some of drama is fed by agents to move along the market.Of course JV has a big mouth so it was obvious he was going to say something. Honestly, I don't think the results would be very much different for Liam. maybe more consistent.

What does Liam Lawson do now? with Honda moving on, I would wager that the potential Super Formula drive would be out. HAAS and Williams are a possibility, if he cuts ties with RB. Haas atleast one of the seats is going to Ollie, it would be interesting if they went with two young drivers with Liam. Williams is Albon's team and driving Albon's might be a struggle (He only beat Logan by 1 point in F2). Alpine would be interesting but there is surprisingly a long list of drivers.   Audi/Kicker/ Sauber, I just assume that is where Carlos is going.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltimaDork
6/13/24 3:09 p.m.

In reply to trigun7469 :

Liam is under contract with red bull for awhile.  However, there is a clause that states if he doesn't have a full time ride (by RB) in 2025, he can jump ship to another team.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/14/24 10:32 a.m.

Well, the tabloids (real and F1) are reporting the worst kept secret in F1,  Newey to Ferrari for a E36 M3 load of money. https://www.newsweek.com/sports/formula1/f1-rumor-adrian-newey-signs-105-million-3-year-contract-after-shock-red-bull-exit-1912868

DrMikeCSI
DrMikeCSI Reader
6/14/24 10:45 a.m.

Now we will see what Newey can do. How fast can he shift the focus of the Ferrari team?

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
6/14/24 8:05 p.m.

I wonder.  Lewis and Newey, either the biggest waste of Italian cash in history, or a marriage of genius and talent that makes the world rotate backwards.

The waste of cash isn't really likely, based on the stock value at Ferrari pre and post Lewis contract.  I wonder if its up again today?

tarach
tarach New Reader
6/16/24 3:29 p.m.

I was looking at the stats about the overtakes this season and it was a bit of surprise to see Lance Stroll at the top with 31 overtakes. Are you surprised as well?

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/16/24 3:34 p.m.

Is 3 years really enough time to make a significant difference in a car?  I would think he'd need a minimum of 5 years.  Unless he was given enough design info to think he can make a difference to the existing car(s) under development.  

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
6/16/24 7:11 p.m.

In reply to tarach :

When you suck in quali, you get to pass lots of cars slower than you are.

adam525i
adam525i SuperDork
6/16/24 7:19 p.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to tarach :

When you suck in quali, you get to pass lots of cars slower than you are.

Unless you are Perez.

It's a shame his E36 M3 race (again) didn't cost Max the win with a safety car right after signing that two year contract.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltimaDork
6/16/24 9:37 p.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

Is 3 years really enough time to make a significant difference in a car?  I would think he'd need a minimum of 5 years.  Unless he was given enough design info to think he can make a difference to the existing car(s) under development.  

The 2026 rules are all new.  In fact, the rules aren't even approved yet.  So, I'd say he could have a rather large impact!

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltimaDork
6/16/24 9:42 p.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to tarach :

When you suck in quali, you get to pass lots of cars slower than you are.

That was my thought as well.

I remember at least one year where a steelers  cornerback led the team in tackles.  Sounds good at first glance until you realize that meant they let alot of receivers catch the ball.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
6/16/24 10:33 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

Is 3 years really enough time to make a significant difference in a car?  I would think he'd need a minimum of 5 years.  Unless he was given enough design info to think he can make a difference to the existing car(s) under development.  

The 2026 rules are all new.  In fact, the rules aren't even approved yet.  So, I'd say he could have a rather large impact!

Especially since he's been thinking a lot about the '26 rules as they develop.  Should be huge, assuming that Ferrari doesn't do a Ferrari to conflict his concepts.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/17/24 11:48 a.m.

Has a "factory" team ever not run it's own engine?  https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alpine-could-abandon-renault-engines-and-become-f1-customer-team-in-2026/10624346/  Renault engines have been teh suck for over a decade now, IMHO RB could have disrupted the Mercedes domination at the beginning of the turbo-hybrid era if the Renault engine would have been class-competitive.

trigun7469
trigun7469 UltraDork
6/17/24 12:11 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Other articles have noted that Adrian Newey is only working 50% of the time. I am not saying that he doesn't get a lot of things done in that time, but I think alot of talent was collected at RedBull, and anyone's guess how that effects the bottom line. I also wouldn't count out Charles, he is not a #2 driver, the 2025 car is being built with no feedback from Lewis or Adrian. Charles is also taking a bag home so lots of big contracts.

Finally Lewis has been out qualified by Russell who leads 8-1. Think about Vettal and Alonso the hype of them going to Ferrari thinking they would crack the code like Schumi did and Kimi did eating a ice creamlaugh

In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :

Time for Andretti to swoop in and buy it.

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