2 3 4 5
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter)
Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/6/20 7:21 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

I think this is perfect but so often there is some huge sweeping generalizations that it kind of needs to be said. Like us LGBT people are viewed as trying to force our beliefs on others when we aren't, and us christians are viewed the same (granted there is a vocal minority who do but). Or people who maybe don't agree on x or y are deemed nazis of hateful or people who dont agree the other way are deemed snowflakes and sjws and such. It's hard to find people with balanced views that account for everything

I'm not trying to force beliefs on anyone. What I will relentlessly do is work to ensure I am viewed and treated legally and socially as 100% of the human being and citizen that I am. More bees are caught with honey than vinegar and I try to have conversation instead of simply telling someone they're wrong. Most will agree that basic equality is pretty silly to rally against if you are willing to have a rational conversation.

But yes, understanding that the most vocal and perhaps visible aren't representative of the majority is crucial to having such conversation in the first place. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 7:31 p.m.
ojannen said:

In reply to kb58 :

The general idea is that the bias inherent in society means that attempting to serve under-privileged groups gets you closer to equality.  It is similar to the argument for affirmative action for college admissions.  Sorry for not selling you a house where you wanted to live and defunding the schools where you were allowed to live.  Here are 30 extra points on your SAT score.  People are attempting to help where they can even if they weren't controlling the real estate market 30 years ago.

Autocross ladies classes are a topic for a different thread.  On the surface, I agree they are pretty weird.  They serve a real, useful purpose even if it is narrow. 

I can't believe that we still have this separation with any group.

We have pro football, and then there is an obscure women's football league.  Pro basketball, and then the WNBA.  It is assumed that these pro sports are for men, but we'll make a token women's league and everything is equal now.  For cripes sake, we still have Golf tees that are closer to the pin for women, as if women can't swing a golf club as well as a man.  I'm not even a woman and I find it insulting.

It's sports.  Just play it.  I don't care what flavor you are.

Same goes for any demographic IMO.  Don't care what you are, who you are, where you pee, who you worship (or don't) or what body bits you have.  I fully admit to being full of white-privilege unconscious bias, but I'm working on consciously becoming aware of it and scrubbing it.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/6/20 8:45 p.m.
Recon1342 said:

I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.

This should not be an unpopular opinion, although I'm sure it is among certain crowds (~30% or so of the country).  I wish more people shared this outlook.

Recon1342
Recon1342 HalfDork
7/6/20 9:30 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Recon1342 said:

I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.

This should not be an unpopular opinion, although I'm sure it is among certain crowds (~30% or so of the country).  I wish more people shared this outlook.

Okay guys, here's the shocker- I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or more commonly, Mormons). I face nearly as many misconceptions about my Church as LGBTQ folks do about their lifestyle. 
 

Being an active member of the church has gotten me some strange looks in certain circles, but I live my life according to the dictates of my free will, and I expect others to do the same. I'm not perfect, and neither is anyone else currently on this earth. All we can do is improve ourselves a little each day. 
 

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 10:05 p.m.

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

No you're are right we do deserve to be treated legally and socially as equals, but a there are some people who say/think that us trying to be treated equally is us forcing our sexuality on others when that isn't the case. And yeah most people are pretty great and not crappy and agree everyone deserves equal rights. I just think people need to be more aware of both nuance and other people's view and where they are coming from/how they feel.

 

Oh and if everyone could ride in a U2 spyplane people would treat each other a lot better:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-COlil4tos

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/6/20 10:07 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I think in sports like basketball it's to allow more access despite physical limitations. Most people will agree most men are bigger and stronger than women because testosterone is a hell of a drug. If everyone was in the same league only a small subset, if any, women would make it in. Case in point serena and venus were beat by the 500 ranked man.....and he was drunk. Separating them means more women can get a chance despite physical limitations.......

 

But in racing? It's not a terribly physical sport so I don't think that makes sense but yeah

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 10:07 p.m.

In reply to Recon1342 :

The last Elders you sent were tasty.  Please send more.  (totally kidding)

Some religions get a bad rep, but 9 times out of 10 it's the religion, not the followers.  And it's not even that the religion itself is specifically set up to be crappy, it's just that sometimes the net result of the best intentions ends up not having the desired outcome. I'm not saying Mormons are crappy, I'm simply saying that YOU PERSONALLY are not the reason people think a certain way about the LDS church.  I grew up UCC (protestant denomination) and I straight up left that church when they fired the pastor that I grew up with because he came out as gay.  I no longer wanted to support a business that fired someone who had dedicated 25 years of his life to the congregation in a perfectly Godly manner just because they learned something new.  If he had been an alcoholic, drug user, or skimming from the collection plate, they probably would have rallied around him with forgiveness and gotten him help.  But something that affected his ministry in no way whatsoever?  They couldn't have that. frown

The people were great.  I'm still friends with them.  The church rules just didn't allow it.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/6/20 10:18 p.m.
Recon1342 said:
ProDarwin said:
Recon1342 said:

I will not allow my belief system to dictate how you live your life.

This should not be an unpopular opinion, although I'm sure it is among certain crowds (~30% or so of the country).  I wish more people shared this outlook.

Okay guys, here's the shocker- I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, or more commonly, Mormons).

Honestly, doesn't shock me in the least.  All of the Mormons I have met have acted similarly - very respectful, not openly attempting to dictate how others live, generally keep a low profile with regard to that, etc.  Now if you told me you were Southern Baptist after your last comment...

I don't want to derail this conversation into a discussion of religion, so I'll stop there :)

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 10:21 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I think in sports like basketball it's to allow more access despite physical limitations. Most people will agree most men are bigger and stronger than women because testosterone is a hell of a drug. If everyone was in the same league only a small subset, if any, women would make it in. Case in point serena and venus were beat by the 500 ranked man.....and he was drunk. Separating them means more women can get a chance despite physical limitations.......

 

But in racing? It's not a terribly physical sport so I don't think that makes sense but yeah

Slippery slope.  It's true that human women are on the average smaller and have less muscle mass because of their genetic and hormonal differences, but to say that most are that way, therefore they should be separate is the very thing we were talking about.... offering a separate thing to a different/marginalized community to give the appearance of equality.  Instead, I think it should be completely open and let things sort themselves.  I know there are plenty of women who would be just as good at being a linebacker, boxer, or anything else in sports as their male counterparts.  So in the NFL draft you open it equally to men and women.  Given the fact that women tend to be smaller with less muscle mass, you might end up with only a handful drafted, but it's because they are the best person for the job, not because they are female, and not because they should play in their own league because she's a woman.  Giving them their own league because they are women ignores the fact that there are some women who could do the job better than some men.  Making a separate league means they are excluded from those opportunities just because of their genes.  To me that is the epitome of exclusion.  "Most people like you wouldn't be good at this job, so you can't have this job."

Seth Green has a better chance of becoming a wide receiver than Ronda Rousey even though she would likely be far better in that job.  I don't think that should be the case just because she has XX chromosomes.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 10:29 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Slippery slope.  It's true that human women are on the average smaller and have less muscle mass because of their genetic and hormonal differences, but to say that most are that way, therefore they should be separate is the very thing we were talking about.... offering a separate thing to a different/marginalized community to give the appearance of equality.  Instead, I think it should be completely open and let things sort themselves.  I know there are plenty of women who would be just as good at being a linebacker, boxer, or anything else in sports as their male counterparts.  So in the NFL draft you open it equally to men and women.  Given the fact that women tend to be smaller with less muscle mass, you might end up with only a handful drafted, but it's because they are the best person for the job, not because they are female, and not because they should play in their own league because she's a woman.  Giving them their own league because they are women ignores the fact that there are some women who could do the job better than some men.  Making a separate league means they are excluded from those opportunities just because of their genes.  To me that is the epitome of exclusion.  "Most people like you wouldn't be good at this job, so you can't have this job."

Slippery slope indeed.

The Crossfit Games have equal payout for men & women as well as equal amount of broadcast time/etc.  If you reduced it to just "who is best" ignoring sex, you would have almost* no women in the games, ever.  So now the girls would get zero money, zero coverage, etc. instead of equal pay, equal coverage.

I think having Men's & Women's divisions makes sense.  I would think football would be very similar, except that currently women do NOT recieve equal pay & coverage.

 

*I put this here to cover my statement in case there is a woman who could qualify among the men, but given what I have seen that is not possible.

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 11:46 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Prodarwin said it very well. While this seems great in theory, in practice it would lead to very very very few women involved, if any. So what about women who really do want to play, and would do great with other women, but are genetically and physically too small to play against a 200 pound 6'4" guy. It, IMO, would lead to only a few genetically abnormal women getting in and they would have to work twice as hard for the same thing, which would get very discouraging, and even then it's hard to overcome said limitation....back to that serena and venus example. I feel like there is no good answer though because a separate, like you said, is very exclusive and does sort of say, what you said, that most people like you wouldn't be good at it so you can't have the job, BUT, at the same time, having a single league and then most women don't get drafted or get don't get in anyway and there's only a couple in the league would also be kind of exclusive and discouraging to women and girls, and they'd probably get upset as well

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 11:47 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Regarding not getting equal pay and coverage: Well I don't think they bring in the same amount of money though, so how could they get the same pay? I mean even in the NFL payments vary by how good you are and the revenue you bring in.......

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 11:51 a.m.

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class? 

Just asking. devil

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/7/20 12:06 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class? 

Just asking. devil

Until a woman shows up and mops the course with you...

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 12:13 p.m.
Duke said:
Snowdoggie said:

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class? 

Just asking. devil

Until a woman shows up and mops the course with you...

 

They all run in the mens group where the competition is.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 12:15 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Regarding not getting equal pay and coverage: Well I don't think they bring in the same amount of money though, so how could they get the same pay? I mean even in the NFL payments vary by how good you are and the revenue you bring in.......

They don't bring in the same amount of money because that's the way the system is.  And the system is that way because they don't bring in the same amount of money.

I know little about the NFL, NBA, etc. and have no idea what the answer to this is.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/7/20 12:40 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:
Duke said:
Snowdoggie said:

So if I dress like a woman and identify as woman can I run in the ladies class at the autocross where I have more chances of winning a trophy because nobody else runs in that class?

Until a woman shows up and mops the course with you...

They all run in the mens group where the competition is.

My club only has open classes.

 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 2:16 p.m.

I remember that RMVR used to have a ladies group so that married couples could share a car, or unmarried couples for that matter. 

It was a vintage club so things weren't all that competitive. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 3:03 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:

It was a vintage club so things weren't all that competitive. 

I always find it amusing when clubs where people aren't that competitive have all these extra classes.  If you aren't that competitive, why does classing matter?

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 3:55 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Snowdoggie said:

It was a vintage club so things weren't all that competitive. 

I always find it amusing when clubs where people aren't that competitive have all these extra classes.  If you aren't that competitive, why does classing matter?

If you are driving an XK120 or a Gullwing Mercedes you really aren't interested in swapping paint with the car next to you. It was more like a rolling car show. The Midget and Spitfire guys might have actually been pushing it a little harder. There were still plenty of parts for their cars in the wrecking yard back then. 

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 5:17 p.m.

In reply to Snowdoggie :

I mean...... I suppose

enginehelp
enginehelp New Reader
7/7/20 5:18 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not really, it's because viewers don't watch/want to watch them as much. I mean no offense to female players but the NBA is much more fun to watch than the WNBA

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 5:42 p.m.
enginehelp said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not really, it's because viewers don't watch/want to watch them as much. I mean no offense to female players but the NBA is much more fun to watch than the WNBA

WNBA Salaries are E36 M3 so the players can't train full time and focus on training and being more awesome.  And because of that maybe the game isn't that good.  And because of that it doesn't bring in the $.  And because of that, their salaries are E36 M3.  Full circle.*

Don't get me wrong, I think there are some viewers who will always claim that women are less interesting to watch.  Those are probably the same douchebags that make claims like "girls" aren't funny and don't watch comedies with female leads.

Disclaimer:  I haven't watched a sportsball game in probably > a decade, nor do I care to.  

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/7/20 5:45 p.m.
Snowdoggie said:

If you are driving an XK120 or a Gullwing Mercedes you really aren't interested in swapping paint with the car next to you. It was more like a rolling car show. The Midget and Spitfire guys might have actually been pushing it a little harder. There were still plenty of parts for their cars in the wrecking yard back then. 

Sorry, had autox on the mind.  Yes, for track stuff it makes sense to keep similar performing cars together.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
7/7/20 5:48 p.m.

I actually thought this thread was going to be about Ru Paul's Drag Race being filmed at Gainsville Raceway next year. 

2 3 4 5
Our Preferred Partners
Jd3zOu1oBBUnq2LDO3h6wF2b5n4wrcdpO8ZNASyCXGqcaNnFRunyeh0lsZpJq53A