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G_Body_Man
G_Body_Man HalfDork
7/10/15 7:39 a.m.

In reply to Zomby Woof:

Yup, M90s only came on the later cars. Someday, I'd love to drop a 3800SC into a Sunfire for E36 M3s and giggles

Fitzauto
Fitzauto Reader
7/10/15 9:53 a.m.

This thread is giving me very bad ideas.

kb58
kb58 Dork
7/10/15 10:52 a.m.

Adding one isn't that easy. Mechanically it's a big deal for a number of reasons.

  1. They tend to be really large units, making placement difficult if the engine isn't already designed for it.

  2. Because it's belt-driven, it dictates where it has to go, whether there's room or not.

  3. The belt to it has to be very very tight - 1/8" steel brackets aren't going to cut it.

  4. (Re)routing the crazy-tight serpentine belt so that it doesn't slip is a big deal. Most people don't understand how tight it has to be and slippage is a very common problem.

Once it's mechanically mounted, it may work with the existing ECU, but probably won't. Is an aftermarket tune available? Can you tune it yourself? Will the existing fuel injectors handle the extra fuel needs? How about the fuel pump?

If an intercooler isn't used, IAT will be far higher than normal, so timing has to be backed out. Who's going to do that, the existing tune, or will the ECU need work?

Adding a supercharger is a lot of work, kind of like building a house. Yet every once in a while someone comes along and says "how hard can it be, it's just a bunch of wood." Sorry to rain on the parade but that's reality.

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/10/15 1:28 p.m.

^truth, thats why lots of people go turbo, easier packaging, and sometimes less plumbing hassle.

joekitch
joekitch New Reader
7/10/15 1:37 p.m.

with the 540i turbo is actually too hard to fit in there, very few successful turbo installs, almost all of them are remote turbos

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/10/15 2:03 p.m.

Google images has a few mounted on the pass side where people mount their centrifugal superchargers..otherwise if turbo packaging is hard, you will have a hell of a time mounting a big roots somewhere unless you get someone to machine a lower intake manifold and mount it in the v. Why not cruise Craigslist and eBay for a used paxton/vortex? Much easier packaging and ive seen them pretty cheap ie sub $500

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/10/15 2:21 p.m.

Be carful of the older Vortex in cold weather. They blow in cold temps. I managed to find out that this was an issue that Vortex knew about after I destroyed mine (drove my mustang to work on a 10 deg day) and although they admitted to there being a issue with there unit in cold weather climates all they were willing to do was rebuild mine at my expense. I was not a happy camper and it was then I decided to move on from Vortex.

If I was to do Vortex again I would use a separate oiling system with a separate electric pump and remote filter with its own oil supply. I would then use something like Redline oil that was specific to the superchargers application needs and not compromise and used the oil from the motor. You could also add a small cooler to it if needed to just keep the head unit cool.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/10/15 2:25 p.m.

I think people need to realize that you can not add a supercharger to every car / motor. However there are some very good candidates out there. 944's are almost made to accept either an m62 or an M90 especially if you do the AC delete.

Regarding "other" stuff. the simple truth is this takes planning. LOTS of it. You also have to have a destination in mind when starting on a project. I see many projects that start out with "I am only going to add a couple lbs of boost" and go to "Hay this monster supercharger was virchally free so now I am going to mae 18 lbs of boost" But for get that every other component of there build will have to change as well as there will be a bunch of stuff that will have to be added to the build.

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/10/15 2:26 p.m.

Whoa didnt know about that, then again being from the deep south idk if its ever been 10degrees here so makes sense why I havent heard about that. What killed it? Too much oil pressure from thick oil or what?

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/10/15 3:37 p.m.

The oil was two thick to provide adequate flow to the head unit causing the gears to eat them self's I don't know if it was a problem with the hose, the orifice in to the head unit or what but that was what I was told by Vortech. I think it was pretty much limited to V2 units from the late 90's early 2000's I think the Vortech units that superseded the V2 had design changes that addressed this but there were still warnings about cold weather operation.

scottdownsouth
scottdownsouth Reader
7/10/15 4:12 p.m.

I have a confession, I'd love to build a blown type 4 VW motor!

joekitch
joekitch New Reader
7/11/15 12:04 a.m.

How does one usually go about machining the adapters needed for the intake, and mounting bracket/pulleys?

is it usually designed in CAD and made on a large CNC mill?

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/11/15 12:46 a.m.

In reply to joekitch:

However you or the machinist wants. If you REALLY wanted to you could hand machine it but it seems cnc would be the best way to go.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/11/15 5:38 p.m.

You don't need a bracket created on a 5 axis mill. What I do it draw things out in cad and where necessary model them in 3d this lets me look for interference between components as well as it gets the alignment of the head unit much more exact. I then model up a mounting bracket assembly BUT I use off the shelf standard pieces of steel that I can then cut and weld to make a bracket. I use spacers when needed and shims. Also no matter how accurate you measure you will need adjustment. I will typically try to give my self an 1/8" of for and aft adjustment on the mounting plate for the head unit. I just can not get measurements that accurate to make it perfect.

A example of the bracket I made (for a 944 suppercharger set up I made uears back) was to take a piece of 1/4" plate steel and then lay out holes for both the Head unit and the holes needed to mount it to the motor using the bolts for the AC delete bracket I got new bolts for the Ac delete brackett that were 3/4" longer to accomidate teh 1/4" plate steel adn teh 1/2 tube shims I used to offset the plate from the mounting points I added 1/2" steel tube shims under the plate to give it a little offset from the un even surface of the ac delete bracket and more importantly for space for the bolts for the suppercharger on the back side of the plate steel. The bolt surfaces were machined to typical German precision so the spacers maintain a precision fit. I then measured the offset of various bolt faces on the suppercharger and made corresponding tube shims and used a belt sander to get a exact sizing and keep the faces square. The holes through the plate for the supper charger or left purposefully a tad larger then the bolts to give my self some for and aft adjustment to fine tune the belt alignment.

Another method I used was to take threaded rodd and bolt it to the mounting plate and then place the tube shims on the threaded rod and then mounted the suppercharger on the "studs" created by the threaded rods. I liked this arrangement better but it was harder to make adjustments to the belt alignment.

The 1/4" plate steel I scribe using a life size 2d cad drawing showing how I wanted it trimmed down as well as where to drill holes and there sizes. I then took the piece of plate steel back to the welding shop where I got it and asked them to make the cuts and drill the holes for me. $$$$$ well spent as cutting / drilling 1/4 in steel plate is a sob. I then do teh final grinding / sanding and at the time I just painted it with the engine paint but now days I would look in to power coating.

All of the above was a lot of quality time with a tape measure and a note pad taking sketches and measurements of both the motor and the head unit and then bringing them together virtually in auto cad and then designing the bracket to mount one to the other. Not hard at all just time consuming.

Another thing anyone that is considering this they should pay a visit to there local hardware store and look in there nuts and bolts isle you would be impressed how many things they have there for shims spacers and what not that make this kind of work easier.

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/11/15 7:25 p.m.

He doesnt need a bracket if hes mounting it in the v, he would need a cnc preferably (no need for 5 axis, standard 3axis cnc mill would do) to machine flanges and a lower intake manifold of sorts..obviously you dont need a cnc to make a bracket thats what band saws and metal brakes are for haha

However theoretical this build is im interested regardless, always had a deep lust for a 540i 6 speed but seeing how so many people look for a supercharger of sorts anyways makes me less interested in the v8 powah. There is a ratty one for sale down the road maybe I should check out

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/11/15 9:53 p.m.

I have always wanted at build a 535 with a suppercharger.

Somthing like this

http://providence.craigslist.org/cto/5113096270.html

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/12/15 1:10 a.m.

In reply to dean1484:

My first car was a 535i e34, I whole heartedly agree with you.

Zomby Woof
Zomby Woof PowerDork
7/12/15 1:22 p.m.

In reply to joekitch:

M62 on a Geo Metro

problemaddict
problemaddict HalfDork
7/12/15 1:44 p.m.

ONE junkyard supercharger? You guys are thinking too small. You obviously need TWO:

TooHighPSI's Twin Supercharged TurboCoupe

Back in 2001 I stood next to this car as it made 475 rwhp on a dyno. Those are two M90s atop a 351W. Total DIY build w/ used, junkyard, and fabricated parts. It ran a 10.46 ET in the quarter. He's also got super low budget twin turbo builds on his site.

joekitch
joekitch New Reader
7/13/15 12:28 a.m.

how does one usually go about taking the shape and spacing of the inlet ports on the engine and on the supercharger and importing them into CAD to design the adapter?

could it be as simple as making a crayon transfer (put a large piece of paper over the ports and rub a crayon on it) and just scanning that, pulling the image into cad, and 3d sketching based on that?

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
7/13/15 12:44 a.m.

That is one way. I have done that on things. I have also taken photos one then scaled them to full scale and traced them in cad.

chiodos
chiodos Reader
7/17/15 3:53 p.m.

Or you know the normal way you design anything for cad, using a program like inventor and take measurements

joekitch
joekitch New Reader
7/17/15 5:38 p.m.
chiodos wrote: Or you know the normal way you design anything for cad, using a program like inventor and take measurements

boooooooooooooooooooring

scans could also be useful in just virtually fitting parts together to see what clearances there are

ronbros9
ronbros9 New Reader
7/17/15 5:53 p.m.

turbo systems are much less work, and some remote turbos DO work quite well, google them. after all we are not building a F1 engine!

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