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ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/31/21 5:53 p.m.

I think that swap will be amazing when they sort out the bumps, but it might be a minute before they sort out the bumps. Their Miata K setup is really nice but it's far from turnkey and the early adopters had to fight through some stuff. 

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
7/31/21 6:42 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Those modern supercharged Jags do not race well nor do they lose weight very well. They also heatsoak easily and the ecu tunes down the power to save itself. Hell a couple of highway pulls in hot weather will cause that. Adding a pulley kit makes it happen even faster. Unless you upgrade the intercoolers and do some type of cooling injection then you'll have this issue. This is why I upgraded the intercooler pump to an AMG pump on my XJR. Which makes it slightly better by not by much. 

Another thing, they don't handle well, AT ALL.

Unless you're talking about an F Type R but that's at least $50,000. Your experience with XJS's and earlier Jags do not carry over to their modern post-Ford models. 

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
7/31/21 6:47 p.m.

A K series swap would be really cool though.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/31/21 7:05 p.m.

Been driving an FRs since June 20 2012.

Love the chasis and its engaemant no mater the road. A car that feels ffod even on the Iowa grid roads is good enough for me.

 

Engine-wise, I treat it as a hand grenade where the pin is just barely in the handle. The car was built to be light and it is obvious the the engine was given the weight reduction treatment along with every single part on the car. The car was built to deal with the 99.8 percent of buyers who will love the car but never push it to the edge. 

 

This all makes it an amazing street car for every day driving. I do not believe they left anything on the table for the hot rod crowd.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/31/21 7:27 p.m.
yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Those modern supercharged Jags do not race well nor do they lose weight very well. They also heatsoak easily and the ecu tunes down the power to save itself. Hell a couple of highway pulls in hot weather will cause that. Adding a pulley kit makes it happen even faster. Unless you upgrade the intercoolers and do some type of cooling injection then you'll have this issue. This is why I upgraded the intercooler pump to an AMG pump on my XJR. Which makes it slightly better by not by much. 

Another thing, they don't handle well, AT ALL.

Unless you're talking about an F Type R but that's at least $50,000. Your experience with XJS's and earlier Jags do not carry over to their modern post-Ford models. 

I'd also like to see this magical 2400 lb Jag. That's is stock. Comparing a stripped down race car to a street car, oh wait, forgot who we were talking to.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/31/21 7:35 p.m.
yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Those modern supercharged Jags do not race well nor do they lose weight very well. They also heatsoak easily and the ecu tunes down the power to save itself. Hell a couple of highway pulls in hot weather will cause that. Adding a pulley kit makes it happen even faster. Unless you upgrade the intercoolers and do some type of cooling injection then you'll have this issue. This is why I upgraded the intercooler pump to an AMG pump on my XJR. Which makes it slightly better by not by much. 

Another thing, they don't handle well, AT ALL.

Unless you're talking about an F Type R but that's at least $50,000. Your experience with XJS's and earlier Jags do not carry over to their modern post-Ford models. 

I honestly have no personal experience . I'm going by what Jag owners are telling me.   To be honest I've  never seen the newer ones on track but I do know that the First generation of Ford owned Jaguars were all designed by Jaguar.  Based on what I've seen the quality is still there. 
    That's why I'm such an advocate  for E85. That mass of Alcohol will cool the charge down impressively.  Plus then it's really pretty simple to trigger WW fluid squirt into the charge above a certain boost pressure. 
     The pulley kit  might not be required  for racing.   500+ horsepower is a lot of power.  Yeh, there is always a new version of something putting out more  but I don't see those on the track either. I'm willing to bet most of those really high horsepower cars are owned by poseurs  who maybe show off at cars and coffee type events but don't have the stones to go wheel to wheel. 
    Handling. The times turned in by the Jaguars at the challenge seem decent enough. Especially when you consider they were in street clothes. ( not stripped for racing)   No street car is ever really well suited for track work. A car like a Jaguar especially where ride quality is more important than  absolute cornering speed.    
     I was thinking of something like an XJR-S that's 4200 pounds or so. 510 horsepower. 8 years old or so. I've  seen them sell  for less than $13000 at the insurance auctions with superficial body damage only. 

    

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/31/21 9:45 p.m.

Currently I'm K swapping an FRS myself, and it seems like a better option than any boosting of an already fragile fa20 from personal experience. The money I spent on a used Kraftwerks kit and all the supporting mods/tuning were probably half the cost of a K swap and once the fa20 lets go you are looking at another $4k at minimum to replace that engine. K Power hasn't released their kit yet, but I think the reason they haven't was mentioned above. They had early issues with Miata stuff and this time they want to make sure it's right before putting it to market. There's hundreds (okay maybe only dozens) of folks begging for partial kits right now in the waiting or at least trying to preorder. When it's released I may be tempted to hit the easy button instead of putting my own stuff together. If you decide to K swap I would start with a car sporting a knocker to get in on the project cheap. Your car is worth considerably more if in good shape with an engine in running condition.

I also see mentioned a c5 z06 as another option, but when I see this I cringe. I've seen the mounds of cash it takes to prep one for track, the cost for tires, brakes, cooling, etc. is far from budget friendly for most folks that are tracking twins. Maybe if you buy one that someone has already spent the money on good parts and is ready to go, but then you are working with someone's already used up goods. Maybe I'm jaded, but I just don't trust most people's work or willingness to maintain anything properly anymore. Or just price a set of good tires for one and see if that is still palatable at least.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
7/31/21 10:00 p.m.

Okay let me play the other side of this argument.  Why not source a used WRX shortblock or long block and add the blower?  It'll take it.  Or turbo?  It ought to cost about the same as a K swap and should work quite well.

 

 

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/31/21 10:54 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I believe some of the reasoning to not swap fa20dit was starter placement, non direct injected fuel system, turbo too low, exhaust on opposite side, and different bellhousing patterns. Probably not deal breakers, but certainly not the easy button it would appear to be.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/31/21 11:50 p.m.

In reply to captainawesome :

Yep, there is a reason that these cars have been out approaching a decade and no one has done it.

 

Sonolin
Sonolin New Reader
8/1/21 12:25 a.m.

In reply to captainawesome :

Thanks for the insight. I agree the K-swap is starting to sound like more sense than a F/I solution.

In regards to the c5 z06 I have actually researched those cars a lot. From what I've read, there needs a lot of cooling mods (trans, engine, and maybe even diff oil coolers) and then you need of course a seat (stock seat is awful) which then leads into the rollbar/cage rabbit hole. In addition to that it seems they also need upgraded brakes (or at least willingness to replace rotors every other track day or so..). Aftermarket shifter is a pretty close to must have for track driving as well. I'm sure I'm forgetting something. 

All in all, I'd probably rather be in the c5 z06 but they definitely take a lot more money to prep to be fast & consistent. Definitely something to save up for, though, and sure you can definitely skimp on a lot of that for a mostly street-driven car (or if you're not using it at the track to the fullest).

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
8/1/21 2:52 a.m.

In reply to Sonolin :

If you are considering the Corvette, you might be able to ease into full out racing mode gently. Take a relatively stock one and drive it as is as you build skill and confidence at the new higher velocity.  
 Then when your first season is over decide for  yourself what your own priorities are.  Address those as funds are available and as your own experience  dictates.  It's not uncommon to find out that some "must haves" aren't really. Rather they are just the excuses needed when drivers find out their own skills aren't up to the task.  
     Will  your track time include wheel to wheel racing or is it all versus the clock? Because I know more than a few drivers where that step from racing the clock to racing wheel to wheel find out that wheel to wheel is seriously different than racing a clock.  
     Wheel to wheel is generally only in the opening lap or two. Because you'll quickly find out  if passing is possible. And if the other driver is pulling away it makes no sense to overdrive the car in a vain attempt to keep up. Conversely if you are pulling away yourself you tend to ease off to save the car.  
     Racing the clock is very much like Golf. You're always pushing to do better and thus draining everything from the car, every single lap even though you may be blocked or slowed down by another, slower driver.  You never ease off  and cool it for the rest of the lap. So you can attack the next lap with the brakes etc a little cooler.  
 Wheel to wheel you know that Bob is hopelessly faster. And only Steve and Mike really are your competitors, and in the opening few laps you know.  
     One other thing about wheel to wheel, you learn how to play chess, in other words think ahead. If Mike tends to overdrive when pushed you can patiently sit behind him. Letting  him pull you along in his draft. Cooling it and bidding your time, waiting for Mike to make his mistake and give you the opening needed to go safely past a slightly faster car/driver. 
      ps  That's just one move in the Chess game of wheel to wheel.  Plus when the race is over, the chess game is still playing. There is the season championship going on.  And the really cool thing is that between races/seasons you can add pieces back on the board.  
  The remarkable part that I like is the bond you develop with competitors. For example, Racing Sir Sterling Moss in the Bahama's for those 10 days developed that in the end we were friends. Not just him. Nearly every person I'd dice with taught me the value of being honest and friendly. 
  Where-as against the clock there are always newer faster cars coming at you. You don't really go into corners close together needing that person to "follow the rules"  so that trust/friendship isn't formed. 

STM317
STM317 UberDork
8/1/21 8:41 a.m.
Sonolin said:

In reply to captainawesome :

Thanks for the insight. I agree the K-swap is starting to sound like more sense than a F/I solution.

In regards to the c5 z06 I have actually researched those cars a lot. From what I've read, there needs a lot of cooling mods (trans, engine, and maybe even diff oil coolers) and then you need of course a seat (stock seat is awful) which then leads into the rollbar/cage rabbit hole. In addition to that it seems they also need upgraded brakes (or at least willingness to replace rotors every other track day or so..). Aftermarket shifter is a pretty close to must have for track driving as well. I'm sure I'm forgetting something. 

All in all, I'd probably rather be in the c5 z06 but they definitely take a lot more money to prep to be fast & consistent. Definitely something to save up for, though, and sure you can definitely skimp on a lot of that for a mostly street-driven car (or if you're not using it at the track to the fullest).

You were talking about spending $7k to boost the FRS, plus suspension and aero and potential driveline repair/replacement so I'm not sure the C5Z would really be more expensive. You're talking about rotors and some coolers and a seat upgrade. Those seem like ancillary things that could be probably be done for under $7k.

And really, if this is to primarily be a street car, I'm not sure you need to do all of these track focused upgrades anyway. Hardcore track upgrades usually just lead to a worse driving experience on the street and reduced usage. 

Olemiss540
Olemiss540 HalfDork
8/1/21 8:44 a.m.
Sonolin said:

In reply to captainawesome :

Thanks for the insight. I agree the K-swap is starting to sound like more sense than a F/I solution.

In regards to the c5 z06 I have actually researched those cars a lot. From what I've read, there needs a lot of cooling mods (trans, engine, and maybe even diff oil coolers) and then you need of course a seat (stock seat is awful) which then leads into the rollbar/cage rabbit hole. In addition to that it seems they also need upgraded brakes (or at least willingness to replace rotors every other track day or so..). Aftermarket shifter is a pretty close to must have for track driving as well. I'm sure I'm forgetting something. 

All in all, I'd probably rather be in the c5 z06 but they definitely take a lot more money to prep to be fast & consistent. Definitely something to save up for, though, and sure you can definitely skimp on a lot of that for a mostly street-driven car (or if you're not using it at the track to the fullest).

Which is why you buy a car prepped to your liking. From a cash standpoint, definately the way to go. 

Also, consider if there is really a need to get the marque (z06) versus the base model if you are getting one with cooling, aero, suspension, braking, and oiling upgrades anyhow. No reason to pass on a well upgraded c5 just because it's not the z06 IMO, but i dont have a depth of knowledge of that chassis to be fair.

Another monster fun and fast car is an e36 with an S54 swap. Much more fun to drive than the vette IMO and dead simple to maintain compared to the powertrain in the vette. Consumables are dirt cheap and the platform is so heavily tracked everything is easily researched. Doesnt have the braking issues, oiling issues, or cooling issues the vette does as long as you buy one prepped (rod bearings, vanos, chassis mounts)

Sonolin
Sonolin New Reader
8/1/21 10:26 a.m.

All good points. It does make more sense to go with the vette perhaps. Im a little leary it is going to require more wrenching than I am comfortable with, but perhaps looking for a well setup vette would be a better idea.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
8/1/21 12:00 p.m.

I'm afraid wrenching is part of racing.  For example I change oil after every race weekend. And when you have a 5 gallon dry sump tank. That's a lot of oil. The up side is in 4+ decades of racing I never had an engine problem. The bearings etc are still the originals. (yes, I pushed the snot out of that engine and won far more than my share of races) same with the transmission and quick change. 
  Good news is you get real good and efficient at it. Do keep records though. In a tablet kept with the cars papers.  I recorded weather, temps, changes made. Times, tire pressures.  Tire temps.  I knew which places I could use the track fuel safely. ( was running 13-1 compression ) which I couldn't which tracks would have tire guys there which didn't. ( flats can and do happen sometimes even at the race track).  If  there wasn't tire guys who in town had equipment I'd trust my wheels to. 
     You'll also needs a set of scales. I used bathroom scales with a lever arm arrangement so you don't need expensive.  But it helps to know corner weights and how to adjust to them.  
Hint; if you have a Corvette look at what the stock car guys do.  You will be very pleasantly surprised at what a click or two of adjusting can do for your lap times. 
 Measure your tires. ( circumference) Both when you install them and as they wear.  I used to even keep track of tire pressures. (cold)  as well as tire temps hot fresh off the track.  Cheap me used a $20 thermal gauge  I could just point the red dot at the middle and both edges.  And write the numbers down as I walked over to the other tires.  Always do it in the same order because they change a little in the minutes it take to get and record all 12 temps. 
The only thing I never kept track of was money spent.    Also keep track of local suppliers.  I even had their home numbers.  Never used them but it was comforting to have them.   

     

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
8/1/21 1:27 p.m.

In reply to Sonolin :

If you're reluctant to go wheel to wheel consider doing Vintage events.  Contact of any kind is taboo. You may be on the track with a multi million dollar car so No contact. 

 SVRA  has a class for cars as new as 5 years old. (2016 ).  And the 13/13 rule applies. Any contact with anyone on the track gives you a 13 month suspension.  You can still race but any further contact stops you from racing for 13 months.  13 months means you'll miss more than 2 years worth of some events.  
    99% of drivers go decades of racing without contact.  
 We race and race hard, but we are careful who we dice with. 
    My worst damage to my car was garage rash. Followed by trailer rash.  ( stuff that happens but off the track). Dropped wrenches, tie down straps etc. 

  Some of the cars you'll race with might seem a little rough.  But that's from many years of racing and patina like that is highly prized. There is a Blower Bentley still racing with its original 1924 paint.  Every scuff, every scratch has a story.  Great pride is taken of the originality of the components. Yet on the track there is a focus on racing well.  

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke UltraDork
8/1/21 6:25 p.m.

The C5 Z06 has a compelling argument. I've driven it extensively on the street and a couple of HPDE. For me it just doesn't inspire fun or a sense of connection. I would much rather drive something that delivers feel and fun over something that is fast on paper, but doesn't reward the driver.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
8/1/21 9:48 p.m.

In reply to clutchsmoke :

I think cars tend to have a certain character, regardless of model.  Racing my Corvette I felt like a stock car driver.  I found I wanted to be sitting up and use my shoulder muscles. Rather than my wrists and fingers. 
 The pedals also felt more like on/off switches than something you could finesse.  Somewhere in the back of my head there was playing Thunder road. ( the movie about delivering moonshine). 
  It wasn't wrong, just different. 
 Every Jaguar I've raced had me feeling like I was in a Spitfire fighting the Battle of Britain. ( no I've never flown a Spitfire) 
 The Ferrari's always gave me a sense of a dancer.  ( well except one 330 with a really stiff clutch pedal forcing my leg to be a truck driver  while the rest of me was that dancer I spoke of ).  A sense of elegance  and grace while dancing with a real beauty. Their transmissions however could not be rushed. Not if you didn't want to beat the syncro's. Maybe that's why those fancy gates. To force you to shift more delicately. 

 I've never driven a Porsche or BMW on the race track but I can imagine they have their own characteristic. 
      

Sonolin
Sonolin New Reader
8/2/21 11:12 a.m.
clutchsmoke said:

The C5 Z06 has a compelling argument. I've driven it extensively on the street and a couple of HPDE. For me it just doesn't inspire fun or a sense of connection. I would much rather drive something that delivers feel and fun over something that is fast on paper, but doesn't reward the driver.

This is my greatest concern honestly. I need to at least try a test drive of these, but unfortunately there aren't much listed in my area. Test drive won't happen until friday/saturday at the soonest. I'm also looking at 370z but was never a huge fan.

Would be good to get a few test drives first and make a firmer decision before I start buying parts.

I wish these older cars were on turo - it would be nice to have one for a few days to really know if it is for me, but I can only seem to find c7s and a crazy expensive 370z (more expensive than renting a new camaro v8 wth lol).

EDIT: How do the c6 vettes compare to the c5 (specifically the z06)? They are cheaper and seem to be more common. I am most concerned with the engine since I know the c5 z06 has much better oiling but perhaps c6 wouldn't be bad if I stick to street rubber. I've also heard the c5s feel more playful and might be a better swap from my BRZ, not sure if anybody has any insight there that has driven both these cars.

AaronT
AaronT Reader
8/2/21 1:08 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to Sonolin :

If you're reluctant to go wheel to wheel consider doing Vintage events.  Contact of any kind is taboo. You may be on the track with a multi million dollar car so No contact. 

 SVRA  has a class for cars as new as 5 years old. (2016 ).  And the 13/13 rule applies. Any contact with anyone on the track gives you a 13 month suspension.  You can still race but any further contact stops you from racing for 13 months.  13 months means you'll miss more than 2 years worth of some events.  
    99% of drivers go decades of racing without contact.  
 We race and race hard, but we are careful who we dice with. 
    My worst damage to my car was garage rash. Followed by trailer rash.  ( stuff that happens but off the track). Dropped wrenches, tie down straps etc. 

  Some of the cars you'll race with might seem a little rough.  But that's from many years of racing and patina like that is highly prized. There is a Blower Bentley still racing with its original 1924 paint.  Every scuff, every scratch has a story.  Great pride is taken of the originality of the components. Yet on the track there is a focus on racing well.  

This post sounds like an endorsement for kart racing. Much tighter battles, much lower consequences for slight contact (monetary and license). Not sure if OP is close to a kart track or if karts would scratch his itch though. For a lot of car guys it's not quite enough, for a lot it is though.

calteg
calteg Dork
8/2/21 1:30 p.m.

In reply to Sonolin :

2008+ C6 has more HP than a C5Z. That being said, the C6 is ~100lbs heavier and certainly feels more detached. If you want to bump your budget up, a C6 Grand Sport would likely be a great compromise

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
8/2/21 3:20 p.m.
Sonolin said:
clutchsmoke said:

The C5 Z06 has a compelling argument. I've driven it extensively on the street and a couple of HPDE. For me it just doesn't inspire fun or a sense of connection. I would much rather drive something that delivers feel and fun over something that is fast on paper, but doesn't reward the driver.

This is my greatest concern honestly. I need to at least try a test drive of these, but unfortunately there aren't much listed in my area. Test drive won't happen until friday/saturday at the soonest. I'm also looking at 370z but was never a huge fan.

Would be good to get a few test drives first and make a firmer decision before I start buying parts.

I wish these older cars were on turo - it would be nice to have one for a few days to really know if it is for me, but I can only seem to find c7s and a crazy expensive 370z (more expensive than renting a new camaro v8 wth lol).

EDIT: How do the c6 vettes compare to the c5 (specifically the z06)? They are cheaper and seem to be more common. I am most concerned with the engine since I know the c5 z06 has much better oiling but perhaps c6 wouldn't be bad if I stick to street rubber. I've also heard the c5s feel more playful and might be a better swap from my BRZ, not sure if anybody has any insight there that has driven both these cars.

In auto cross or with street tires on you won't have the oiling problems you experience with wheel to wheel on racing rubber. Doesn't matter what brand car, wet sump systems just can't  save the engine. Go ahead try baffles, try oil pressure reservoirs ( accusump), overfilling the pan. Swinging pickup, Etc.   

   Wheel to wheel racing on sticky race rubber  will require a dry sump system. And not the Corvette semi dry sump. 
  Oh you can get away with it for a race but your oil pressure will be lower at the end of the event. ( the result of the bearings running dry on hard braking/cornering). 
So be smart,  plan on dry dumping whatever you decide to race. 

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