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golfduke
golfduke Dork
4/1/24 10:07 a.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to golfduke :

Late reply- how would a human catch the broken sensor, or the decaying system and prevent the shutdown?  Automation and humans would use the same info to control it. More people does not always make it better. So many disasters are because humans missed or misinterpreted information.  
 

No idea on manning of the ship, but I'm not on all of the assumptions. 

I think that's a totally fair question.  I guess I see it as 'more eyes, more hands, more ability to scramble'.  The failure was likely unavoidable, I totally concede that.  But like others have said, more available hands and brains devoted to the mechanical side of things definitely couldn't make the end result worse.  

But again, I do see where you're coming from and it's totally valid.  Sometimes there's just nothing anyone can do.  Perhaps I'm short-sighted in thinking more staff could change the outcome.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver MegaDork
4/1/24 11:40 a.m.

I think a whole lot is going to depend on a what redundancies were in place for the systems that specifically failed in addition to what warning signs were present that some thing was not optimally operational. NTSB is going to be all over that. 

With the sheer scale of these maritime powerplants, the money involved in operating them, and how helpless a ship is if they cease operation leads me to believe that there is a VERY high liklihood that any system that could bring it to a screeching halt like that would either have extremely robust redundancies OR performance monitoring aimed at pre-empting actual failure. It is entirely probable that such existed, but due to cost-savings and complacency were disregarded. Will be interesting to see the end result of the NTSB investigation. 

Noddaz
Noddaz PowerDork
4/3/24 12:19 p.m.

What do a top-secret CIA mission and the Maryland bridge wreck have in common? Well, the same crane

Per the AP.  https://apnews.com/article/baltimore-maryland-bridge-crane-history-e8476975f771f848a68e3dea071e5e65

 

Coincidence?  I think not...  lol

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/3/24 2:16 p.m.

So a lot of comments were about how unique this was- and when looking at bridge strikes, yes.  But just two years ago, a container ship ran aground in the Cheseapeake Bay not far from the FSK Bridge.  Took 35 days to free her, but shipping issues in a busy port area isn't that uncommon.

If it were ME who was building the replacement, I would use a technique that widens the main span, but keep the shipping channel almost the same width.  So that it would widen the area of possible failures as well as have space to add other possible protections to the bridge.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
4/3/24 3:01 p.m.

Is it just me or are any images/videos of the cleanup activity in short supply? 

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
4/3/24 3:18 p.m.

Not necessarily cleanup, but NTSB has some b-roll from their review on the boat.

NTSBgov - YouTube

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/3/24 3:28 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

From the video I saw, drones were a huge safety problem for the 2022 grounding, so I'm betting that drone coverage will be significantly controlled for this clean up.  Meaning the videos from people not involved will have to come from shore.

I found this video very informative- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-DAZqTZCb8&ab_channel=WhatisGoingonWithShipping%3F

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones UltraDork
4/3/24 8:55 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

They announced no drones are allowed in the area a few days ago. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
4/3/24 9:57 p.m.

So far these two are the only humans spotted doing any actual work. And they are in every video shown that just keeps looping. I was kinda expecting that with over 1000 army core of engineers there would be more action on the ground/water.

 

Maybe need to invite over a bunch of these Indian dudes from the ship breaking yards; they seem to know how to move a lot of metal in a hurry with no tech.

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
4/4/24 6:25 a.m.

Maybe announce that the bridge is made out of platinum and a bunch of crackheads will come chop it up really fast?  

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/4/24 9:22 a.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

One issue mentioned is most of the structure is under stress, so they can't have folks just cutting steel willy-nilly lest something goes flying into other workers. Structural engineers are working like crazy to calculate what will (hopefully) happen when a part of the steel is cut. And then where the stresses will be focused after that cut is made.  I'm sure once they get a handle on it, they'll add more crews and work will go faster. 

Cutting up a ship is not the same. A static ship hasn't been torqued and bent into shapes it wasn't designed to be in.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
4/4/24 9:29 a.m.

Step one:  Get 20 tug boat, yank ship back into harbor.

Step two: Dynamite.  

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter)
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
4/4/24 9:45 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Pick up the pieces off the bottom- Done. But that makes too much sense.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/4/24 9:45 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Have you seen the pictures of this ship with tug boats next to it?  They look like fleas next to a bulldog.  I'm not sure we have enough tug boats on the entire eastern seaboard to move a 220,000 ton ship that is currently pinned to the seabed (bay-bed?). 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/4/24 10:04 a.m.
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Pick up the pieces off the bottom- Done. But that makes too much sense.

They are.  But they are doing it to not make it worse.  Or take longer to clean up.  Better to take as much in one lift than have to keep finding new parts of the bridge later on when a ship hits it.

They also don't want to drop containers from the ship into the water, making another hazard that has to be cleaned up.

This isn't like when you see a cup in the bottom of your sink, this is a river that is very murky and really hard to see, let alone grab stuff and take out of the bottom.

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter)
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
4/4/24 10:12 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

They might ought to call in the brown water boys.

https://www.waterwaysjournal.net/2024/03/29/debris-removal-completed-at-demopolis-lock/

NY Nick
NY Nick SuperDork
4/4/24 10:15 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

I appreciate the bold moves but the physics of this don't work. 

I am sort of expecting to see them use one of the cutting chains to cut this into manaegable chunks and lift up the pieces, that way people aren't doing the cutting of pieces that are in a stressed state (i.e. going to release a bunch of energy when freed).

Like this:

 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/4/24 10:20 a.m.

In reply to NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) :

A lock that is shallow isn't the same as a moving river. And we will ignore the time it will take to move their equipment. 
 

 

NermalSnert (Forum Supporter)
NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
4/4/24 5:06 p.m.

Hmmm. When I was on the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers I saw a few salvage operations. They do it all the time in deep, fast moving, murky water.

Stampie
Stampie MegaDork
4/4/24 5:40 p.m.

I would think that right now the effort is restrained so that they can recover the bodies. Not a good look to cut them up. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/4/24 6:37 p.m.

In reply to NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) :

Maybe they have something already lined up for a similar thing.  Dunno.  They have a lot of work to really come up with a game plan to remove the structure without making the situation worse.  I know they have a 500 and 1000 ton crane pair there.

This is going to take time to get done, even though I also think they will have a path to get one ship through in a month or so.  Another update that I found useful- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SlDMN7_7A&ab_channel=WhatisGoingonWithShipping%3F

Apexcarver
Apexcarver MegaDork
4/4/24 7:10 p.m.
alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
4/4/24 9:19 p.m.

Press release from the Army Corps of Engineers- https://www.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Releases/News-Release-Article-View/Article/3731723/us-army-corps-of-engineers-develops-tentative-timeline-to-reopen-fort-mchenry-c/

 

 

BALTIMORE --

As the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE), Baltimore District continues working with local, state and federal partners to clear the wreckage along the Fort McHenry Channel following the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge, engineers have determined a tentative timeline for the restoration for safe navigation in and out of the Port of Baltimore.

 

After detailed studies and engineering assessments by local, state and federal organizations, in collaboration with industry partners, USACE expects to open a limited access channel 280 feet wide and 35 feet deep, to the Port of Baltimore within the next four weeks – by the end of April. This channel would support one-way traffic in and out of the Port of Baltimore for barge container service and some roll on/roll off vessels that move automobiles and farm equipment to and from the port.

 

USACE engineers are aiming to reopen the permanent, 700-foot-wide by 50-foot-deep federal navigation channel by the end of May, restoring port access to normal capacity.

 

“Thanks to the exhaustive work of the Unified Command during the last two weeks, including underwater surveys and detailed structural analysis of the wreckage, we’ve developed a better understanding of the immense and complex work that lies ahead,” said Lt. Gen. Scott A. Spellmon, USACE commanding general. “A fully opened federal channel remains our primary goal, and we will carry out this work with care and precision, with safety as our chief priority.”

 

“These are ambitious timelines that may still be impacted by significant adverse weather conditions or changes in the complexity of the wreckage,” Spellmon added. “We are working quickly and safely to clear the channel and restore full service at this port that is so vital to the nation. At the same time, we continue to keep faith with the families of the missing and are working with our partners to help locate and recover their loved ones.”

Pretty agressive plans, but there's a pretty significant need for it.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
4/5/24 8:42 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

That's a much more realistic timeline than the nonsense they were spouting days after the incident. It may take a year or more to completely demo the bridge but they should be able to open the harbor fairly quickly. 

The heavy lift cranes will pick up enormous pieces of the bridge. 

When the Grace Memorial and Silas Peerman bridges in Charleston were demoed, they dropped entire spans into the harbor with explosives and then snagged them with cranes to clear the channel. The channel closures were all less than 24 hours. 

Granted they will have to deal with a lot of twisted steel, but that's what they make torches, lances, and explosives for. 

 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/5/24 8:50 a.m.

Lifting the ship off the bottom is something that area officials are well versed in after last spring. The preferred methodology is to actually inflate large bags under the haul up against the sea floor. After weeks of attempted yanking and pulling that's how they unstuck the Evergreen last year when it ran around in an oyster bed. 

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