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yamaha
yamaha SuperDork
2/3/13 5:23 p.m.

Is it a 91/30 or an m44? I one ask because m44's are designed to be fired with the bayonet extended....otherwise, the sights won't be right.

ronholm
ronholm Reader
2/3/13 5:50 p.m.

If you are sure you are somewhere on the paper I wouldn't worry about the exact location of each and every shot. Just hit the paper and spend more of your time on proper sight picture, breathing, smooth trigger control, tight controlled position. Ect.

Then once the groups are consistent and tight. Then and only then make the adjustments to bring them to center

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
2/3/13 6:02 p.m.
yamaha wrote: Is it a 91/30 or an m44? I one ask because m44's are designed to be fired with the bayonet extended....otherwise, the sights won't be right.

91/30, 1940 (Izhevsk). The bayonet is off.

ronholm wrote: If you are sure you are somewhere on the paper I wouldn't worry about the exact location of each and every shot. Just hit the paper and spend more of your time on proper sight picture, breathing, smooth trigger control, tight controlled position. Ect. Then once the groups are consistent and tight. Then and only then make the adjustments to bring them to center

I only shot those five rounds at 50 yards. All were on the paper.

Four were on the target, one was too low. I'll admit that I probably flinch, but I don't know why. The kick is really not that much different from shooting trap with my browning.

ronholm
ronholm Reader
2/3/13 6:35 p.m.

The best thing we do when teaching folks to shoot st my crazy uncles place

Give them a nine shot .22 revolver. Sometimes you load them up with one empty, sometimes 4. They never know which holes are going to hit.

All claim they don't flinch and have great trigger control. They are always wrong.

wlkelley3
wlkelley3 SuperDork
2/3/13 9:16 p.m.

^ This is the biggest issue most shooters have, including myself. I'm usually better the first batch of shots, after that I start anticipating and compensating for the recoil. I know I do it and try hard not to but still end up doing it anyway. Dad shot competition, I never got as good as he was but I can hit the broad side of a barn and get the expert markmanship badge in the army for every weapon I tried.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic HalfDork
2/3/13 10:02 p.m.

Get some of the Czech surplus 7.62x54r low recoil training ammo thats on the market right now, have a friend load the rifle for you.

ronholm
ronholm Reader
2/3/13 10:16 p.m.

And practice 'snapping in'. Just grab your rifle and get comfortable with your most favorite shooting position which often done properly is a little uncomfortable.

Then just sit there trying to maintain a good sight picture. Once you think you have it close your eyes, take a couple deep breaths and then open your eyes. More often than not you won't be on the target anymore. Adjust your body and go again. Then do it again. The goal being to remain on the target even with your eyes closed.
The longer you can remain in these uncomfortable positions the easier it will be to stay in them for short amounts of time.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic HalfDork
2/3/13 10:21 p.m.

In reply to ronholm:

Agreed, just be sure to do that in a locked room, people might think you're going all Taxi Driver on them otherwise.

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
2/4/13 8:46 a.m.
Kenny_McCormic wrote: Get some of the Czech surplus 7.62x54r low recoil training ammo thats on the market right now, have a friend load the rifle for you.

Like this stuff? http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplus/648-rd-case-762x54r-czech-surplus-46-grain-hollow-core-low-recoil-ammo

chuckles
chuckles Reader
2/4/13 9:34 a.m.

The basic thing to know is what a scope does. It puts the sight and the target in the same focal plane. The eye can only focus in one plane (one distance) at a time. When you must choose between the front sight, rear sight and target, you choose the front sight and let the other two blur.The older you get, the blurrier it all gets. It's a skill that must be developed with practice. Main point is that a ZERO power scope accomplishes the main goal.

As magnification goes up, the field of view shrinks. 4 power is plenty for most hunting situations where the target may be moving and the range isn't enormous. The high cost of premium scopes goes primarily into glass which buys better clarity and light gathering. Seeing holes in paper may be better done with a cheap spotting scope.Hope this helps.

stroker
stroker Dork
2/4/13 10:05 a.m.
JoeyM wrote: Can that rail be used in scout mount?

Mfg says it mounts to the receiver, not the barrel. Doesn't sound like it.

You're looking for B-Square #18522 which I found here:

http://swfa.com/B-Square-Classic-Military-Mounts-C606.aspx

Looks funky, but maybe it works.

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
2/4/13 10:23 a.m.
stroker wrote:
JoeyM wrote: Can that rail be used in scout mount?
Mfg says it mounts to the receiver, not the barrel. Doesn't sound like it.

Thanks for checking.

You're looking for B-Square #18522 which I found here:

http://swfa.com/B-Square-Classic-Military-Mounts-C606.aspx

Looks funky, but maybe it works.

Awesome. The price is definitely right.

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
2/4/13 10:40 a.m.

What do you guys think about shooting with iron sights, but ones that are not stock. Would this help my groups?

yamaha
yamaha SuperDork
2/4/13 10:50 a.m.

it could possibly, my mossberg 64b seems to be more accurate when using the peep sight in the back to limit your view to only the iron sights.....IMHO, that wouldn't be the best for hunting, nor would ghost ring sights. But as always, user preference prevails. It could work for you, it could work against you......its a toss up.

rotard
rotard Dork
2/4/13 11:00 a.m.

Grouping is all about fundamentals. Get your groups better, then worry about the rest. Sights won't make your groups tighter. Adjusting the sights after getting your groups tight will get your groups where they need to be on the target.

slantvaliant
slantvaliant SuperDork
2/4/13 11:16 a.m.

I routinely put click-adjustable aperture receiver sights on my rifles, whether for hunting, plinking, or competition. Real match sights (Warner, Centra, etc.) are expensive and bulky, so I use the less expensive types like the Williams FP or FP-TK series on my hunting and multi-purpose rifles. BTW, most of my rifles serve several purposes. The only rifles I don't put receiver sights on are those that a) came with them, b) are for a specific competition where such modifications aren't allowed, or c) wallhangers and safe queens.

The rear apertures are available in different diameters, ID and OD, to match the intended use, lighting, etc. Some have large OD's, but those are better on a range than in the field. Merit and others make adjustable irises.

The sight should be placed to give a long sight radius, but not hit you in recoil or interfere with operation.

Practice mounting the rifle (get your mind out of the gutter) while keeping your eyes on the target, and the speed will come.

slantvaliant
slantvaliant SuperDork
2/4/13 11:25 a.m.
rotard wrote: Sights won't make your groups closer.

Disagree. While the nut behind the trigger is the biggest issue, sights can make a huge difference in group size.

rotard wrote: Adjusting the sights will get your groups where they need to be.

A lot of rifles don't have field adjustable sights, at least for zeroing. Adding a receiver sight is a good way to get fine, repeatable adjustments.

rotard
rotard Dork
2/4/13 11:27 a.m.
slantvaliant wrote:
rotard wrote: Sights won't make your groups closer.
Disagree. While the nut behind the trigger is the biggest issue, sights can make a huge difference in group size.
rotard wrote: Adjusting the sights will get your groups where they need to be.
A lot of rifles don't have field adjustable sights, at least for zeroing. Adding a receiver sight is a good way to get fine, repeatable adjustments.

Disagree. Nut behind trigger first, then worry about the rest. Throwing parts and money at the problem isn't the answer. If your fundamentals are down, the groups will be the same, regardless of whatever sight you have.

slantvaliant
slantvaliant SuperDork
2/4/13 1:58 p.m.
rotard wrote: If your fundamentals are down, the groups will be the same, regardless of whatever sight you have.

Demonstrably false. If humans are involved in aiming, sights matter.

Conquest351
Conquest351 SuperDork
2/4/13 2:08 p.m.

H&K G3 with cheapo Crosspoint 4-16 scope. 20 rounds of .308 goodness in that box magazine. I have sunk 3 rounds into the same hole at 100 yds with iron sights on this rifle. Kicks like a mule, loud as hell, but I loves it.

02Pilot
02Pilot HalfDork
2/4/13 4:07 p.m.

I tried the Mojo sights on a Mauser 98. I can't say I was particularly impressed; the major issue is that the rear sight is too far away from your eye to get the clear picture afforded by real (receiver-mounted) aperture sights. YMMV, and they are much easier to mount than a receiver sight that will require drilling (there was an old aftermarket rear sight for the M-N that mounted to the cocking piece, but those are like hen's teeth), but they weren't worth it for me.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic HalfDork
2/4/13 5:34 p.m.
JoeyM wrote:
Kenny_McCormic wrote: Get some of the Czech surplus 7.62x54r low recoil training ammo thats on the market right now, have a friend load the rifle for you.
Like this stuff? http://www.sgammo.com/product/surplus/648-rd-case-762x54r-czech-surplus-46-grain-hollow-core-low-recoil-ammo

Yes, hopefully they get more, its kinda hard to come by.

JoeyM
JoeyM UltimaDork
2/4/13 6:48 p.m.
02Pilot wrote: I tried the Mojo sights on a Mauser 98. I can't say I was particularly impressed; the major issue is that the rear sight is too far away from your eye to get the clear picture afforded by real (receiver-mounted) aperture sights. YMMV, and they are much easier to mount than a receiver sight that will require drilling (there was an old aftermarket rear sight for the M-N that mounted to the cocking piece, but those are like hen's teeth), but they weren't worth it for me.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Have you looked at or tried the M-N smith sight? http://www.smith-sights.com/

yamaha
yamaha SuperDork
2/4/13 7:00 p.m.
Conquest351 wrote: H&K G3 with cheapo Crosspoint 4-16 scope. 20 rounds of .308 goodness in that box magazine. I have sunk 3 rounds into the same hole at 100 yds with iron sights on this rifle. Kicks like a mule, loud as hell, but I loves it.

Those won't be had cheap in the current panic market........the FAL is superior to those anyways, I just didn't mention it due to cost.

02Pilot
02Pilot HalfDork
2/4/13 7:25 p.m.
JoeyM wrote:
02Pilot wrote: I tried the Mojo sights on a Mauser 98. I can't say I was particularly impressed; the major issue is that the rear sight is too far away from your eye to get the clear picture afforded by real (receiver-mounted) aperture sights. YMMV, and they are much easier to mount than a receiver sight that will require drilling (there was an old aftermarket rear sight for the M-N that mounted to the cocking piece, but those are like hen's teeth), but they weren't worth it for me.
Thank you. I appreciate it. Have you looked at or tried the M-N smith sight? http://www.smith-sights.com/

I haven't tried it. It might be a mild improvement, but I wouldn't expect a whole lot. I much prefer iron sights to scopes as a general rule, but in the specific circumstances you're dealing with, I would (after having confirmed the accuracy potential of the rifle) go with a low-power scope in a scout mount and call it a day. Personally, I can't see the value in spending real money on a scope for a Mosin-Nagant - it's like having your shovel encrusted with precious stones. The cheapo 3-9x I've got on my M39 has held up forever and is more than enough; a 4x or so is probably all you need. Spend the money you saved over buying an expensive scope for more ammo.

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