Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/21/22 4:17 p.m.

I stay the course on the blue. Every time I see it I get excited. 
 

idea: my itb setup does not come with any provision for vacuum source for the idle control nor ecu. So. My thoughts were three: 

1. Drill and tap the throttle bodies. They are pretty thin walled and the potential for problems is high.  
2. Use the injector ports either on the throttle bodies or head for vacuum source with appropriate adapters.  Should work fine but might be messy.  
3. New idea today, between each of the intake ports is a void in the head. Why not drill through the walls of each of them, connecting the intake ports, and do a single vacuum takeoff?  Only problem I see is the center port is not covered by the throttle body flange, so I'd have to figure that out. Maybe do two vacuum takeoffs by just connecting the voids between 1-2 and 3-4. 
 

ideas?

 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/21/22 4:23 p.m.

Or! Anyone know where the egr port goes into the intake? If it does, it should give me a signal, correct? I can't feel or see anything in the #4 intake. 

Shavarsh
Shavarsh Reader
1/21/22 4:25 p.m.

If you're worried about the throttle bodies thin wall can you drill/epoxy some pushloc fittings onto the bottom of the runners?

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) PowerDork
1/21/22 4:38 p.m.

I don't know much about this engine, but the idea of drilling on the head gives me the heebie jeebies. 

Being ITB, you're going to have some challenges designing it, if I understand correctly.

Maybe a manifolded tube below the intake to calm down those intake surges?

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/21/22 6:39 p.m.
Shavarsh said:

If you're worried about the throttle bodies thin wall can you drill/epoxy some pushloc fittings onto the bottom of the runners?

Yeah there just isn't a lot of meat there to thread, if I'm reading your suggestion correctly. 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/21/22 6:41 p.m.
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:

I don't know much about this engine, but the idea of drilling on the head gives me the heebie jeebies. 

Being ITB, you're going to have some challenges designing it, if I understand correctly.

Maybe a manifolded tube below the intake to calm down those intake surges?

You mean challenge tuning it? I'm expecting it to be somewhat painful. Figured that having a vacuum signal for very low load and idle would be helpful in that regard. Then go to alpha N for anything past a certain map signal. They are big throttle bodies so I assume vacuum will go to zero damn near immediately. 

DrMikeCSI
DrMikeCSI New Reader
1/22/22 12:29 p.m.

If you look at MKE's post about the Ferrari 308 V12 I think he has a design for a multiport manifold pressure sensor that might be useful. 

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) PowerDork
1/22/22 1:08 p.m.
Teh E36 M3 said:
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:

I don't know much about this engine, but the idea of drilling on the head gives me the heebie jeebies. 

Being ITB, you're going to have some challenges designing it, if I understand correctly.

Maybe a manifolded tube below the intake to calm down those intake surges?

You mean challenge tuning it? I'm expecting it to be somewhat painful. Figured that having a vacuum signal for very low load and idle would be helpful in that regard. Then go to alpha N for anything past a certain map signal. They are big throttle bodies so I assume vacuum will go to zero damn near immediately. 

Yeah, Man, while I have no actual experience, what I read on the interwebs tells me vacuum pulses from the cylinder's sucking and blowing events lead to an erratic vacuum signal (to the ecu), and that complicates tuning. To me, it looks like maybe a log type manifold on the injector ports nearer the throttle bodies might be a good idea, and use the injector ports on the head for, you know, injectors.

I dunno, maybe a 1" pipe, with connections to each?

Note: I have no experience in any of this, and my comments are pure speculation. Hoping just having someone to bounce ideas off helps. Party On

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/24/22 10:36 p.m.

Yeah I've read quite a bit about the same thing. Some dampen the signal with a fuel filter. I think just having a larger volume like you propose will go a long way to fixing the problem. I just have to find a place to tap the vacuum from that I'm comfortable with. I have a vacuum "block" to tie them all together with some volume. I'm going to look further into tying those head inclusions together. Focus heads aren't horribly expensive so it might be worth it. 
 

As to MKE's multi map solution, I am nowhere near tech savvy enough to figure that out. And I'm not comfortable given that all the maps are calibrated ever so slightly differently. Someone on MSEFI figured out a breakout board that sampled the lowest signal and fueled based on that. It used four signals but was dismissed because it couldn't be accurately calibrated for variances in map sensors. 
 

truth is, I don't know how much a difference all that makes. My plan is to use one sensor. I've read that having sequential fueling makes low load and rpm much smoother. RUSEFI has a unit that does this. The micro squirt I have now only does batch. I'll likely start with the micro squirt to see how it works. 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/24/22 10:39 p.m.

Oh and as for the last bit- hell yeah. That's why I'm here man. And I really appreciate it. 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/24/22 10:43 p.m.

Here's some dummy injectors I could use to make adapters for vacuum signal from the injector ports.  

bluej (Forum Supporter)
bluej (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
1/24/22 11:36 p.m.

Oh! I had forgotten we're using the same ITB's for our RWD 2.5 duratecs.  Here's the mockup of my hacky solution for a collective vacuum source. It's just fuel line that fits snuggly into the supplied fuel rail with some black rtv to seal.

The left side of the fuel(vac) rail runs to a 1/2" NPT brass pipe. The M-F-F tee on the end of that brass pipe is where the IAT (shown) is located, and the barb then connects to a smaller line that runs to both the FPR and Map sensor. I'm hoping that provides enough volume for a useful signal 

On the right, that first barb port out from the vacumn rail is the inlet from the IAC. There's a pcv valve on the DS of the engine that plumbs to one side of the larger brass tee below that, and the other side runs to the brake booster. 

For reference, I'm using an ms3 set up for sequential injection, though it's not running yet.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/25/22 12:54 a.m.

We have a similar idea. I'm going to get those dummy injectors and cut them in half. Through drill a hole and then tap for 1/8 npt. Thread a 1/8 npt to 3an fitting, then use 3/16 hard line to a vacuum collector. It should look sharp and get the job done. 

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
1/25/22 1:12 a.m.

I'm running GSXR ITB's on my 4AGE Locost.

There is no "idle control" per se, I just ramp up some spark advance below my minimum idle speed to keep it from stalling. It warms up quick enough that it has never been a problem unless it is well below freezing (and it's an open car, so why would you?!).

I have previously run all the runners T'd together and piped to the MAP sensor. They are stock cams, so the vacuum signal is decent.

I struggled for years to make it work on Speed-Density, but when I finally (reluctantly) switched to straight Alpha-N there was no going back.  It was infinitely better to tune and drive on Alpha-N.

I no longer have the MAP sensor hooked up to the motor at all anymore, I use it for constant barometric correction.  It runs and drive so fine, I don't believe you could tell whether it was tuned Alpha-N or Speed Density.  I am very happy with the result.

Don't over think it (grin).

And this project is awesome, by the way!

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/25/22 10:47 a.m.

Hahaha. That's probably how all the itb aftermarket setups are running. Doesn't look like any of them draw a map signal. That's also about how I was planning on idle control. I'm not driving this thing in the really cold and if I do, I can set up a 'choke' cable to idle up for a few minutes while she warms up. 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
1/27/22 6:30 p.m.

I'm walking in circles again. Just trying to get something done every day. Finish welding suspension links and getting a prime coat on them. 

I received the 'second skin' stuff from spectrum for undercoat and heat control. Has to be above 50 degrees though, and I'd like to give it another couple weeks for that. Also my sons 4Runner is still taking up the driveway as I await his transmission from rebuild. I'll do the undercoat stuff prior to paint. I'll undercoat the underside obviously, part of the engine bay, the trans tunnel, and the inside cockpit and inside trunk.  May just do pre mix color and clear spray cans for under the hood so all that is left is the outside. 

Still waiting on my one piece fiberglass front from mini mania. It's been a few months, as they come from honeybourne in UK. Still 1/3 price of USA option as long as I can be patient. 
 

Also need to install cams, valve springs, and new valve seals but don't have an engine stand, and honestly don't want another one (like, to own). Trying to find a place to borrow one for a few weeks so I can do that work and paint the motor. Also trying to decide to do full pistons, rods, arp, etc or just sit back on that front. I've got a keyed forged ND crank and timing gear. I intend to run it hard so figured why not grab those, but again, now all the fancy bits are calling out. 
 

glenzo654
glenzo654 New Reader
2/2/22 8:49 a.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :going with dustless blasting on a car is/was a huge mistake you should of had it dry blasted then just blow it down.Im part owner of a sand blasting company and we bought into the dustless hype about 6 yrs ago now that 15k pot sits on the trailer with 2 other dry pots .Dustless has its uses ie grafitti removal in public places but should not be used where you cant wash the surface 100% so its horrible for cars and frames good luck with mud removal!

 

 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
2/11/22 9:50 p.m.

Seemed like a good idea at the time, and truth is it's going to be fine, just a lot more cleanup than I was hoping for. It's pretty good now. Just a few grains here and there now. 
 

Got my 'undercoat' stuff, and that's next while we have good weather. 
 

Ready to do up the motor and start buttoning things together. 
 

I think I figured out my vacuum situation- going to use 3an to cunifer tubing to a vacuum block. 
 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
2/21/22 10:22 p.m.

Having a dilemma - get it painted or run ahead and get it running. Was 100%for getting all the paint done and not running it until everything was just so. 
 

Now im looking at it- maybe getting it running and driving it for a few months before painting will give me a chance to work out some bugs before im past the point of re-welding areas that may need mods....this is a lot of justifying. 
 

pros: 

chance to revisit challenge areas and re weld or repaint 

chance to troubleshoot with same bennies above 

 

cons:

have to put it all together and take it all apart again, again

have to mask off a million things to make painting decent. 
 

So- im thinking this- I've got the bodywork at 99%.  Leave it in primer, and undercoat, paint the inside of the cockpit and engine compartment, and trunk. Get it wired and running, drive it for a while and paint next year. Downside is that it puts off finishing, but upside is that as I said above.... I can fix the odd thing without disturbing new paint. 
 

'thoughts?

 

pic in primer:

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
2/24/22 6:49 p.m.

Took the opportunity to do some porting today. For the most part they looked good but I took off some slag/lips on both intake and exhaust. The intakes required very little, and it's a good thing because there is very little meat to work with.  
The exhaust ports were way undersized for my header so I opened them up a little bit, and was able to straighten some flow coming in at a huge angle. Ports are still slightly undersized for my 1.75" primaries, but I think that's ok, and will provide a small measure of anti-reversion (maybe). 
 


Shavarsh
Shavarsh Reader
2/24/22 6:56 p.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Interesting painting scheme, I would think the interior and engine compartment would be the most likely places to need unforseen welding. If you aren't worried about needing to revisit those areas I would paint the whole car. Just my 2 cents!

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
2/25/22 12:03 a.m.

Yeah I get wrapped around the axle on process and order of operations. I'll get it done by doing one thing at a time. 

dherr (Forum Supporter)
dherr (Forum Supporter) Dork
2/25/22 9:14 a.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Building two cars like this at the moment. Definitely would be a vote for get it all installed and running before you paint the car as with an engine swap like this, there will still be many things you need to change/modify that you have not thought of or planned on to get it completed. Painting and then having to cut/grind and drill is still an option, but it means you are going back and fixing things and that is never fun. The second car I am working on will be mocked up as much as possible before paint, so I'll at least build the chassis and mount the body and get everything hooked up as much as possible to minimize having to rework it after it is painted. Body is at a similar point as yours.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
2/25/22 11:31 a.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

Here was my logic at this same point.

If I drive it and I love it as a rat(ish) rod, I am not going to want to stop driving for a year or two to blow it all apart and do a nice paint job. Plus the $$$ will be going into other things at that point and would have to be re-diverted,

If I drive it and hate the car it might not ever get painted and I will walk away from the project. If it is painted, not only will that hurdle be crossed off the list but I will be more committed to getting it done right no matter the time and effort.

This is my least favourite part of a project. Financially and effort-wise I want to be done investing and start collecting the dividends. But you are still 10 yards from that finish line.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
2/26/22 7:05 p.m.

That makes sense. I'll keep trucking and just see what the limiting factor is and decide from there. I'm still waiting in the damn fiberglass nose and it may take another month or two. Meantime I can build up the motor, undercoat, finish roll bar, etc. I think there is enough to keep me busy and if the nose just becomes a pain I'll revisit. 
 

Today, some roll bar work. 


 

still trying to make it a bolt in - I think they look better without and I'm not sure my head would really clear it by much, so a collision without a helmet might cause problems. 
 

I have some fine-tuning but this is what I want shape-wise and it came together pretty good. 
 

Question- I can't find any information regarding sizing of harness bars. I have 1.25 4130 tubing I could use but can't find anything that says what is legal. 

Our Preferred Partners
m8zYoXUcCICYcMR6svMUYExBgFMuquaNMOGRhzSE2yAvDnvyC7FX4LN5LXkAqiy3