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thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago UberDork
1/26/23 4:30 p.m.
SV reX said:
thatsnowinnebago said:
SV reX said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I also consider myself a rather strong feminist, but that can mean a lot of things...

I am a defender of women's capabilities, abilities, strengths, and their right to be compensated for their skills equally with men.

That's precisely what feminism is supposed to be. Bringing women up to where they should be, not dragging men down. It's not a zero sum game. So, in my opinion, you're doing exactly what we all should be doing.

I agree. 
 

But that's not the way it is playing out society wide, and men are being damaged in the process. That's pretty much what that entire poem is about, as I hear it. 

Yeah it's frustrating. I have some female friends who think the right way to be feminist is to be mean to boys and dismiss anything they say as "mansplaining." It's pretty counterproductive and they aren't dumb so they should know better. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 5:06 p.m.

In reply to thatsnowinnebago :

"Mansplaining" is a disgustingly rude word. Pretty much the same as sticking your hand in someone's face and telling them to "talk to the hand...".  Let's just be honest... It means "Shut up.  I have no respect for your opinion".

I expect more from intelligent people, regardless of their gender. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
1/26/23 6:05 p.m.
SV reX said:

Let's just be honest... It means "Shut up.  I have no respect for your opinion".....

....BECAUSE you are a man.

(Very misandristic)  

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/26/23 7:30 p.m.

I think the critiques of feminism are beside the point. The examples are just a new coat of paint on an old story.

It comes down to people not valuing and caring about the mental and emotional health of men. This is an ages old problem.

It's a big one and I don't really have an answer for it.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
1/27/23 7:30 a.m.

Original feminism - equal opportunity for women - I support.

Modern feminism - men suck and we don't need them, or we want special treatment because vagina - no.

Masculinity is toxic until a power line needs repaired in a blizzard. Or a natural disaster like Katrina occurs. Or someone invades your country. Then, it's suddenly and quietly celebrated. Afterward, however, the PTSD is often glossed over or ignored, dismissed as 'weakness'. 

But, show that mental injury in polite company or to your significant other and watch people move quietly away.

I don't have an answer.

 

 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/23 8:11 a.m.

In reply to ddavidv :

Way too much to unpack here, but you basically just said you want them to have equal opportunities.... but you equate fixing a power line or responding to a disaster as a man's job.... which means you don't want them to have equal opportunities.

We have such a long way to go.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/23 8:14 a.m.
Beer Baron said:

I think the critiques of feminism are beside the point. The examples are just a new coat of paint on an old story.

It comes down to people not valuing and caring about the mental and emotional health of men. This is an ages old problem.

It's a big one and I don't really have an answer for it.

I think Sleeveless' answer is pretty spot on.  Teach boys that it's OK to cry.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/27/23 8:32 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to ddavidv :

Way too much to unpack here, but you basically just said you want them to have equal opportunities.... but you equate fixing a power line or responding to a disaster as a man's job.... which means you don't want them to have equal opportunities.

We have such a long way to go.

I didn't hear that at all. 
 

I work in construction. We get an enormous amount of accusations of "toxic masculinity", etc.  Continuously.  We all know it's an insult, and it devalues us. 
 

But we don't hear anything at all when a tornado strikes and it's time to rebuild. That's not saying women CAN'T do construction. They CAN, and honestly they are some of the best construction workers I get to work with. However, the industry is 99.9% male dominated, and the truth is that when you need someone to respond to these emergency situations, it's gonna be men, because most of the people in the industry are men. 
 

When we in construction respond to crises, the "toxic masculinity" accusations stop. That's when we are treated with respect. We are treated like heroes. We are given baked goods and great smiles and genuine gratitude.  
 

Side note... I have never heard a female construction worker use the phrase "toxic masculinity".  They are far more likely to berate their female counterparts who use words like that, and to defend their male coworkers. 
 

If you want to read into it looking for misogynistic intent, be my guest. I think it's just a statement of fact of our cultural dynamics, with no judgement on the capabilities of women in jobs like this. 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/27/23 8:37 a.m.

Back on topic of taking positive steps for addressing mental/emotional health of men rather than pointing fingers...

The following is something I've been dealing with as I've had a major source of stress, and how it's affected my relationship with my wife. (This is going to be a bit long and rambly because it's something I'm trying to figure out how to deal with.)

So... I can cry in front of my wife. I can be emotional. That's fine. I actually cry over movies, music, and other cathartic art way more than she does. She doesn't judge me for any of that.

However, when I am stressed and anxious over an issue weighing me down, it's very dificult to go to her for support. Not because I'm worried about judgment, but because her reaction will often be counterproductive.

If I am anxious and trying to work through it, and she sees that, she becomes anxious. She doesn't know how to set that anxiety aside and help me. Now, I have to deal with helping her process her anxiety before we can start to deal with *my* anxiety. When I go to her for support, it suddenly becomes me *providing* support rather than being supported.

I'm not sure how much of this is her or a common trend with women.

I think I need to discuss it when I'm not in the midst of anxiety. Possibly will need to seek couples counseling to find the tools or strategies for dealing with it when it comes up in the future.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/23 8:37 a.m.

Meh, I'm probably more sensitive than most.  I'm like the new vegan who judges others for wearing leather.  (not really... but I'm pretty reactive to feminism stuff)

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/27/23 8:40 a.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I experienced that too. It's part of what led to my divorce. 
 

All I needed was someone I could trust to be able to go to for support when things were not going well. She couldn't be that for me. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/27/23 8:41 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, you are sensitive. That's a good thing. 
 

Overly sensitive is not. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
1/27/23 8:50 a.m.
Beer Baron said:

Back on topic of taking positive steps for addressing mental/emotional health of men rather than pointing fingers...

The following is something I've been dealing with as I've had a major source of stress, and how it's affected my relationship with my wife. (This is going to be a bit long and rambly because it's something I'm trying to figure out how to deal with.)

So... I can cry in front of my wife. I can be emotional. That's fine. I actually cry over movies, music, and other cathartic art way more than she does. She doesn't judge me for any of that.

However, when I am stressed and anxious over an issue weighing me down, it's very dificult to go to her for support. Not because I'm worried about judgment, but because her reaction will often be counterproductive.

If I am anxious and trying to work through it, and she sees that, she becomes anxious. She doesn't know how to set that anxiety aside and help me. Now, I have to deal with helping her process her anxiety before we can start to deal with *my* anxiety. When I go to her for support, it suddenly becomes me *providing* support rather than being supported.

I'm not sure how much of this is her or a common trend with women.

I think I need to discuss it when I'm not in the midst of anxiety. Possibly will need to seek couples counseling to find the tools or strategies for dealing with it when it comes up in the future.

I hear this. I can be less open with my wife than with my closest eight friends. Honestly most of the time she isn't trying to help, not just that she doesn't know how.

I hear Tyler Durden "We are a generation of men raised by women, I am beginning to wonder if another woman is really what we need".

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/27/23 8:54 a.m.

In reply to SV reX :

My wife *can* be a source of support, but it takes a lot of emotionally energy from me to get to that point.

I keep things in - not to shove them down and bottle them up - but to set them aside until I know when and how to bring them up. Then I know I'm going to have to expend the energy working through her reaction first.

My wife is the best partner I've had at evaluating, recognizing, and taking responsibility for her actions. When she has been in the wrong, she recognizes that and says so. It usually just takes time.

I've learned that I need to bring something up; steel myself for it to be a rough initial conversation; step away for hours or until the next day; and then she'll have processed things and we can have a productive discussion.

As emotional as I am, I think I'm also pretty emotionally resilient(*). I can deal with this. It's just not fun, and not the healthiest way of handling things.

I'm trying to figure out how to get us there, particularly since my source of anxiety isn't gone, the heat is just turned down.

* I dealt with a lot of emotional trauma and abuse growing up. Fortunately, I was able to recognize that the sources of these were not my fault. I had the perspective to recognize that something was wrong with my abuser, not with me.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
1/27/23 8:54 a.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to thatsnowinnebago :

"Mansplaining" is a disgustingly rude word. Pretty much the same as sticking your hand in someone's face and telling them to "talk to the hand...".  Let's just be honest... It means "Shut up.  I have no respect for your opinion".

Yes, its a rude word.  Intentionally so.  Its a response to a rude, condescending, patronizing behavior.

It doesn't mean "shut up, I have no respect for your opinion", it means "shut up, your condescending behavior is incredibly rude"

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/27/23 9:05 a.m.
tuna55 said:

I hear this. I can be less open with my wife than with my closest eight friends. Honestly most of the time she isn't trying to help, not just that she doesn't know how.

I hear Tyler Durden "We are a generation of men raised by women, I am beginning to wonder if another woman is really what we need".

I think 'Fight Club' is a satire that is critical of the Tyler Durdens of the world... but even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes.

This may be an important part of the answer. My male friends frequently get it. I've had conversations of women who don't understand men not talking about their problems with other men, and not understanding that two guys sitting on the back porch together sharing a beer quietly serves that role of emotional support.

Unfortunately... my situation is about work, and most of my male friends are involved in the company. The solution of me leaving would involve our joint finances and very likely moving. So my wife has to be a part of the conversation.

It has become less popular in modern society for there to divide things up into "male spaces" and "female spaces". I don't want the way things were in the past where pretty much every space was defined as one or the other. But I think we still need social spaces that are "male" and ones that are "female".

That also doesn't mean that you can't have a woman or non-binary person in a "male" space, or a male/non-binary in a "female" space. But they need to recognize what the culture is and work to fit the culture of that space rather than expecting it to adapt to fit them.

I mentioned before how I think skate parks are really emotionally healthy for young men. That's a great example of a "male" space. It welcomes women, but you're expected to follow the social rules of the park. Many long-time skaters (male AND female) are bothered by a trend of women rollerskaters - mostly coming from roller derby - bringing a "women taking over the skatepark" mentality.

Maybe much of what we need to bring back are the social activities for young men - team sports, boy scouts, etc. - but with emotionally healthy modern sensibilities. Rather than football being something that exploits the health of young men so that universities and the NFL can profit.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/27/23 9:10 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
SV reX said:

In reply to thatsnowinnebago :

"Mansplaining" is a disgustingly rude word. Pretty much the same as sticking your hand in someone's face and telling them to "talk to the hand...".  Let's just be honest... It means "Shut up.  I have no respect for your opinion".

Yes, its a rude word.  Intentionally so.  Its a response to a rude, condescending, patronizing behavior.

It doesn't mean "shut up, I have no respect for your opinion", it means "shut up, your condescending behavior is incredibly rude"

I think it's both.

It is used to shut down behavior that women don't like.

Sometimes women don't like that behavior because it is rude, condescending, and inappropriate. Other times... I've been accused of "mansplaining" for communicating with women exactly the way I communicate with men here.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/27/23 9:26 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
SV reX said:

In reply to thatsnowinnebago :

"Mansplaining" is a disgustingly rude word. Pretty much the same as sticking your hand in someone's face and telling them to "talk to the hand...".  Let's just be honest... It means "Shut up.  I have no respect for your opinion".

Yes, its a rude word.  Intentionally so.  Its a response to a rude, condescending, patronizing behavior.

It doesn't mean "shut up, I have no respect for your opinion", it means "shut up, your condescending behavior is incredibly rude"

Then the correct way to handle it is "I understand completely. Please don't over-explain or speak to me in condescending ways". 
 

Attaching "man" to the beginning of the word is suggestive of bad behavior on the part of all members of the gender, not specifically the person who is speaking rudely. 
 

Just as it's not acceptable to say "women can't make logical decisions, they are too emotional", it's also not acceptable to lump all men into a category of abusive communication behavior because they have a penis. 
 

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
1/27/23 9:30 a.m.

Fair.  Douche-splaining or some other gender neutral insult would be more appropriate.

Agreed that it is often overused.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/27/23 9:33 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I'm not sure "douche" is perceived as gender neutral by all genders! Haha!

We agree. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
1/27/23 9:48 a.m.
Beer Baron said:
tuna55 said:

I hear this. I can be less open with my wife than with my closest eight friends. Honestly most of the time she isn't trying to help, not just that she doesn't know how.

I hear Tyler Durden "We are a generation of men raised by women, I am beginning to wonder if another woman is really what we need".

I think 'Fight Club' is a satire that is critical of the Tyler Durdens of the world... but even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes.

This may be an important part of the answer. My male friends frequently get it. I've had conversations of women who don't understand men not talking about their problems with other men, and not understanding that two guys sitting on the back porch together sharing a beer quietly serves that role of emotional support.

Unfortunately... my situation is about work, and most of my male friends are involved in the company. The solution of me leaving would involve our joint finances and very likely moving. So my wife has to be a part of the conversation.

It has become less popular in modern society for there to divide things up into "male spaces" and "female spaces". I don't want the way things were in the past where pretty much every space was defined as one or the other. But I think we still need social spaces that are "male" and ones that are "female".

That also doesn't mean that you can't have a woman or non-binary person in a "male" space, or a male/non-binary in a "female" space. But they need to recognize what the culture is and work to fit the culture of that space rather than expecting it to adapt to fit them.

I mentioned before how I think skate parks are really emotionally healthy for young men. That's a great example of a "male" space. It welcomes women, but you're expected to follow the social rules of the park. Many long-time skaters (male AND female) are bothered by a trend of women rollerskaters - mostly coming from roller derby - bringing a "women taking over the skatepark" mentality.

Maybe much of what we need to bring back are the social activities for young men - team sports, boy scouts, etc. - but with emotionally healthy modern sensibilities. Rather than football being something that exploits the health of young men so that universities and the NFL can profit.

It's interesting how similar we are despite how different we see certain things. I really appreciate that, and the deeper offline conversations we've had.

I, too, see what you are seeing. I have a list of close friends. I make a point to check in with them frequently. I make a point to have coffee with a friend once per week or so to have an hour with no kids, no wives, no goal, no work to be done, just to talk. It's super helpful.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
1/27/23 9:51 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
SV reX said:

"Mansplaining" is a disgustingly rude word. Pretty much the same as sticking your hand in someone's face and telling them to "talk to the hand...".  Let's just be honest... It means "Shut up.  I have no respect for your opinion".

Yes, its a rude word.  Intentionally so.  Its a response to a rude, condescending, patronizing behavior.

It doesn't mean "shut up, I have no respect for your opinion", it means "shut up, your condescending behavior is incredibly rude"

I agree, it definitely should mean what you say.  That's what it originally meant.

But of course, among the more extreme, it has basically come to mean "any man explaining anything," and is treated as Paul describes.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
1/27/23 9:58 a.m.

Right.  I think an equally (or more?) unfair example for the opposite sex would be a "Karen".

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/27/23 10:07 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

We have "Ken".

"Karen" does not refer to all women.  It specifically refers to white women of privilege with an attitude (and I hear women use it frequently, but rarely from men).  There is no comparable word to tell women to "shut up".  If a woman tries to treat me in a condescending manner and  over-explain something to me that she thinks she is knowledgeable in, I'm expected to be silent and listen in a respectful manner (or at least say nothing in response).  

We don't need a word that says "Shut up, I have no respect for your opinion, and want to make it known in a particularly rude manner".  We have decent and respectable words that are excellent at communicating when we are being disrespected. 

slefain
slefain UltimaDork
1/27/23 10:11 a.m.

Friend of mine is FtM trans. He says one of the biggest things he had to get used to in his new life was being cut off from showing his feelings, and that nobody ever asked about his feelings. He's just expected to suck it up now with no outlet.

Macho Man said it was okay to cry, I'm not going to argue:
 

 

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