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tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/26/11 10:32 a.m.
bravenrace wrote:
tuna55 wrote:
alfadriver wrote: And long term, at the expense of people who actually buy or use that product (the OP's main point).
Guys, I am pretty sure his point was: whether or not you agree with his motives, he was disappointed to find no electric grinders made in the US. I am as well. This discussion is interesting, I suppose, but not even close to on topic. My Dad used to sell Mac tools. Good US made stuff, right? When I was looking at welders, I initially looked at used. Mac welders, he told me, were made in Italy by some HB type company, even in the early 90s. Terrible. I lament the loss of being in a country that actually produces.
Yes, that was my point. I shouldn't have included the rant about Chinese products, as that just complicated the thread. I worked as an engineer for Matco Tools in the late 80's-early 90's. I had one of those HB welders. Piece of crap, but it was a left over test unit for us. Back then, anything not made in the US was frowned upon by our dealers. We were the first of the pro tool suppliers that to offer Iwata paint guns that were made in Japan. We couldn't sell them, because they had some plastic parts on them and they were made in Japan. Man, things have changed. Iwata paint guns are pretty highly respected now, and I would love to buy a tool made in Japan versus one made in China. Matco is/was a Danaher company. Danaher also owns the company that did/does produce Craftsman hand tools (wrenches, sockets, ratchets). Summit Racing recently started selling Craftsman tools. I went in there the other day and looked at some. All made in China.

No kidding about the Japanese stuff. It has really come quite far in quality, though, although most Japanese power tools outsource their stuff to China as well. My Makita drill was made in China, I noticed when I went to take it apart when it broke.

One time in my Dad's shop, I saw a Japanese measuring tool they were using and noted that I was surprised to see it there. His bud, a grizzled mechanic, replied, "Hell, somethin made in japan is a precision F^(%!*& piece of equipment these days". So times, they are a changin, but, as you and I understand, that doesn't make it OK to not produce anything domestically.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 10:33 a.m.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'm having a hard time figuring out what the OP was actually about, in light of the rest of the thread.

Me too!
I had been looking for a 4" electric angle grinder. I couldn't find one not made in China, let along one made in the US. My post was basically just a rant to vent my frustration, but I guess I didn't state it very well, as some thought I wanted help finding one, others wanted to lambast me for wanting to buy American, some thought I for sure would want something I wasn't looking for, and some just want to discuss the global economy. That's all okay. I still don't have a angle grinder. But I'll say this, my last one was a $12 Chinese swap meet purchase. It lasted 13 years or so. When I look at the name brand units at Lowes or Home Depot that cost upwards of $100, I don't think they're any better. If I was going to buy Chinese, I'd get another $12 grinder. But I'm pretty sure I"m just going to look for a good quality used grinder. Even if it's made elsewhere, I'm not sending my money there since I'll be buying it used.

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/26/11 10:36 a.m.

It would be interesting to know when the last US-made angle grinder made of US-sourced parts came off the line. I'll bet they were assembled out of parts from all over.

If you want a new angle grinder that's made anywhere BUT China, I posted a couple of options earlier. Basically, Japan and Germany. My own angle grinder is a pawn shop DeWalt. I have no idea where it was made, but because it was bought used it didn't really support anyone's economy.

Does anyone else find it funny that the "Imported from Detroit" Chrysler 300 is made in Canada with an engine from Mexico?

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 10:43 a.m.

I would guess it was sometime around 2003 or 4. I only say that because I think Milwaulkee was the last one to build stuff here, and I read that they ended US production around that time. For any product to say "Made in the USA" on it, it has to have a certain percentage of US parts. Not 100%, but you also can't import all the parts and then assemble it here and label it "made in the USA".
I noted the options you suggested and will look into them. Thanks.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
10/26/11 10:44 a.m.
bravenrace wrote:
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'm having a hard time figuring out what the OP was actually about, in light of the rest of the thread.
Me too! I had been looking for a 4" electric angle grinder. I couldn't find one not made in China, let along one made in the US. My post was basically just a rant to vent my frustration, but I guess I didn't state it very well, as some thought I wanted help finding one, others wanted to lambast me for wanting to buy American, some thought I for sure would want something I wasn't looking for, and some just want to discuss the global economy. That's all okay. I still don't have a angle grinder. But I'll say this, my last one was a $12 Chinese swap meet purchase. It lasted 13 years or so. When I look at the name brand units at Lowes or Home Depot that cost upwards of $100, I don't think they're any better. If I was going to buy Chinese, I'd get another $12 grinder. But I'm pretty sure I"m just going to look for a good quality used grinder. Even if it's made elsewhere, I'm not sending my money there since I'll be buying it used.

Ah gotcha... see, i thought initially you wanted help looking for a US-Made electric angle grinder. Carry on.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 10:45 a.m.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Well if you knew wher to find one I would like to hear it, but that wasn't the reason for my post.

Josh
Josh Dork
10/26/11 12:31 p.m.
ThePhranc wrote: In reply to mad_machine: Some regulations are good and are needed. Some are just burdens on companies. Manufacturing move to where it is cheapest period. That isn't just wages that also includes regulations.

Don't kid yourself, it's mostly the wages. Over time that tends to correct itself though (50 years ago "made in Japan" meant what "made in Taiwan" did 25 years ago, and what "made in China" does today). But you can't ignore that lack of regulation has a very real cost, even if it isn't expressed neatly in dollars. In a country where the citizens are treated as a billion worthless interchangeable cogs undeserving of basic human freedoms, killing a few million of them with toxic pollution might be considered an acceptable cost.

I don't have a problem with the fact that we seek out favorable trading arrangements with other countries. We're not always losing out by moving away from manufacturing goods, any more than a doctor is going to go poor because he doesn't cut his own lawn. He's got a better and more valuable purpose for his effort, and for the most part so do we. The problem is that we don't hold the partners we trade with accountable to the same standards that we hold ourselves to. In effect, we're just outsourcing whatever consequence that we've deemed unacceptable to some other place that doesn't take the same responsibility for their citizens (or the rest of the world's) that we do. The long term solution isn't to lower ourselves to their level.

Osterkraut
Osterkraut SuperDork
10/26/11 12:49 p.m.
Keith wrote: It would be interesting to know when the last US-made angle grinder made of US-sourced parts came off the line. I'll bet they were assembled out of parts from all over. If you want a new angle grinder that's made anywhere BUT China, I posted a couple of options earlier. Basically, Japan and Germany. My own angle grinder is a pawn shop DeWalt. I have no idea where it was made, but because it was bought used it didn't really support anyone's economy. Does anyone else find it funny that the "Imported from Detroit" Chrysler 300 is made in Canada with an engine from Mexico?

The "Imported from Detroit" car is a Chrysler 200, exactly because the 300 is made in Canada.

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/26/11 1:09 p.m.
Osterkraut wrote:
Keith wrote: It would be interesting to know when the last US-made angle grinder made of US-sourced parts came off the line. I'll bet they were assembled out of parts from all over. If you want a new angle grinder that's made anywhere BUT China, I posted a couple of options earlier. Basically, Japan and Germany. My own angle grinder is a pawn shop DeWalt. I have no idea where it was made, but because it was bought used it didn't really support anyone's economy. Does anyone else find it funny that the "Imported from Detroit" Chrysler 300 is made in Canada with an engine from Mexico?
The "Imported from Detroit" car is a Chrysler 200, exactly because the 300 is made in Canada.

Not to derail this thread even more, but I'm pretty sure they used that slogan on a commercial for the 200 AND 300.

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/26/11 1:11 p.m.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/20/new-imported-from-detroit-commercial-touts-chrysler-300s-new/

ditchdigger
ditchdigger Dork
10/26/11 1:40 p.m.
Keith wrote: My own angle grinder is a pawn shop DeWalt. I have no idea where it was made, but because it was bought used it didn't really support anyone's economy.

If your pawn shops are anything like the ones around here it would support the meth making/distributing economy but that is OK since they tend to keep it local

Is red devil lye still made in the USA?

motomoron
motomoron HalfDork
10/27/11 7:06 p.m.

I'll offer that I have been very pleased w/ my 4-1/2" Makita angle grinder. So pleased I bought a second one.

I have a pretty comprehensive machine and fab shop. It's small by commercial standards, but pretty major for a home-based setup. The majority of what I have is old American made machinery which will outlive me, and it a joy to use. The downside is the time-money-quality axis. For example, I wanted a 14" vertical bandsaw with a dual-range gearbox, in other words, capable of doing everything from resawing balsa to profile cutting stainless steel plate. It turns out the perfect saw exists. It was made by Walker-Turner from just after WWII through the 70s.

Quality in this case was the pointy end of the pyramid. I had time, and preferred to not spend a huge amount. 1-1/2 years later I made a trip from DC to NJ to pick up my saw, an early 50s unit in nice shape. Fitted w/ new ball bearing guides and urethane tires on the wheels, it's amazing.

The new, US made option (Quality, no time) was $4000. The Chinese units (No quality, no time) were $1600. My W-T (Quality,time, no money) was $600 finished.

So - you can equip your shop w/ quality non-Chinese tools and machinery - but the new US stuff is incredibly costly, and the old stuff means you just have to look at searchtempest.com every day 'til it materializes.

One of the best discussions of the plight of the US manufacturing industry is at practicalmachinist.com. I follow the general forum as my "GRM of machining" but the

Manufacturing Forum

Is pretty good too.

Osterkraut
Osterkraut SuperDork
10/27/11 7:34 p.m.
16vCorey wrote:
Osterkraut wrote:
Keith wrote: It would be interesting to know when the last US-made angle grinder made of US-sourced parts came off the line. I'll bet they were assembled out of parts from all over. If you want a new angle grinder that's made anywhere BUT China, I posted a couple of options earlier. Basically, Japan and Germany. My own angle grinder is a pawn shop DeWalt. I have no idea where it was made, but because it was bought used it didn't really support anyone's economy. Does anyone else find it funny that the "Imported from Detroit" Chrysler 300 is made in Canada with an engine from Mexico?
The "Imported from Detroit" car is a Chrysler 200, exactly because the 300 is made in Canada.
Not to derail this thread even more, but I'm pretty sure they used that slogan on a commercial for the 200 AND 300.

Whoops!

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy HalfDork
10/27/11 10:57 p.m.
We demand cheaper and cheaper products, which eventually lead to forcing manufaturing out of this country

This might have been addresed, but it is my experience that all other things being equal a corporation will try to maximize it's profits. If people are willing to pay the same (or close to the same) for a product made in Overthere-istan vs. the USA, any company worth their shareholder meeting is going to move production.

alex
alex SuperDork
10/28/11 1:20 a.m.

Why not buy used? Like Tom said (I think; I'm too lazy to go back through the thread), even if it needs refurbishing, that money goes to a local source. I buy just about everything I can used, both for economic and vague environmental reasons: if I'm buying one that's already extant, and new one doesn't have to be made, shipped, etc.

Now, I don't know how easy it is to buy a used US-made electric angle grinder - it's not a perfect solution to every problem. But working with what's already around, as a general policy, strikes me as being less wasteful.

Swap meets, flea markets, antique stores, eBay and Craigslist are all great ways to set about this strategy. As long as I don't need it NOW, I've done pretty well so far.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 HalfDork
10/28/11 3:06 p.m.

I've actually started to get alternators/starters etc rebuilt rather than give them to the autoparts stores as cores and getting a "lifetime" warranty on their rebuilt units. It's a whole different story when you go to a shop and see the guy's face who's doing the rebuilding. Funny thing is, it was almost exactly the same price. If you have a good quality tool to start with, getting it rebuilt should be just as good as buying a new one. I could go on the rant about our "disposable" society, but I'll save that one....

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
10/28/11 3:22 p.m.
Snowdoggie wrote: So when Mitt Romney orders all those extra destroyers built to go mess with China, we are building them using Chinese power tools?

Yep. And most assuredly Chinese steel as well.

racerdave600
racerdave600 Dork
10/28/11 5:03 p.m.

OK, as much as I'd like to sit this one out, I'm going to have jump in here. First, we currently do business in about 6 different countries, and buy parts from 3, including China. We do all of our critical assembly here in the US (with some final assembly for pieces in South Africa per their govt. regs), and are in the VERY heavily regulated energy industry, mainly mining of all types. And I am actively involved in sourcing manufacturers for various components.

Sad as it is, in many instances, it is impossible to find sources outside of China, especially for some molded parts. Sure there are some smaller shops around, but if you need large quantities, there is no other viable option. And they aren't even that much cheaper. All of you pro-regulation people need to realize that there are so many regs out there that are killing off companies and industries as a whole. It's far more than simply a price structure. It is also the time, money and agravation of dealing with the various government entities set up to govern the different industries, sometimes several that overlap. All of you "greed" people need to wake up. It's far more than the few companies you read about paying CEO's millions, for many companies, it's about their very survival. And the survival of it's creators dream.

And if you have to produce something that needs government approval, expect it to be tied up for months or years. We have one board that needed a .003 increase in size to accomodate a wire size change, one that they mandated, and it is still in the approval process. It has been there for 6 months with no end in sight. And this is on a product that was previously approved and asked to be changed, by them, for no verifiable reason. We have a US board house waiting to start production, with money tied up in parts sitting there...and employees with nothing to do. How long do you expect them to keep them on payroll? We've managed to keep them somewhat busy with work for South Africa and Australia, but for the US, not so much.

The inefficiency of the government (especially many of the regulatory arms) knows no bounds, and it is run by people that are completely inept, or unwilling to make simple decisions. There are some good ones, but they are overrun by people put in place by some high ranking government official uncle. I would rather deal with any business than the US government. It is slow, inefficent, poorly run, and the largest money sucking entity known to man. The sheer waste and expense added to companies by our federal, state and local governments is mind boggling.

I am not saying we don't need some regulations, what I am saying is that we need sound regulations applied evenly and swiftly. If we were not purchased by a much larger company able to withstand some of the regulatory expense last year, the US would have put us out of business, simple as that.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
11/1/11 8:46 a.m.
Teh E36 M3 wrote: I've actually started to get alternators/starters etc rebuilt rather than give them to the autoparts stores as cores and getting a "lifetime" warranty on their rebuilt units. It's a whole different story when you go to a shop and see the guy's face who's doing the rebuilding. Funny thing is, it was almost exactly the same price. If you have a good quality tool to start with, getting it rebuilt should be just as good as buying a new one. I could go on the rant about our "disposable" society, but I'll save that one....

I've actually started to do the same thing. When I went to school, they taught us how to rebuild everything, because that's what we did back then. The hardest part now is finding the parts to do it myself.
I recently repaired the generator on my tractor. It was new just a few years ago, a genuine New Holland part. But one of the brushes was defective and the lead came off. It took me a week to find someone that would sell me just the brushes. I ended up buying from a local rebuild house, and I had to talk him into selling it to me, because he said they don't normally sell just parts. And they weren't even the correct parts, but I was able to grind them to fit. But I've also started to repair appliances, audio equipment, lawn equipment, all because the old stuff is better quality than the new stuff and it makes sense to keep in working.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
11/1/11 8:49 a.m.

I emailed Makita and Bosch and asked them where their 4-1/2" grinders were made. Makita never replied - They've lost my business. Bosch did reply, and this is what they said:

"Dear Jim,

Thank you for writing and for your interest in our grinders. I have listed the information requested below:

1380-China 1800-Germany 1347A-Discontinued 1810PS-Germany 1810PSD-Germany 1375A-China

We value you as a Bosch tool user & trust that you will use your Bosch tools with confidence. If you have further questions please write back.

Ellen Bosch Customer Service"

I haven't had a chance to look into their grinders further, but will. I'll either buy one of the German made grinders or if they don't meet my needs, I'll go used.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
11/1/11 9:14 a.m.

In reply to racerdave600:

Or they say that a grease which won't catch fire in 100% oxygen can't be used on the flame path but petroleum jelly can be. Talking about MHSA.

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