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foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
10/25/11 8:33 p.m.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to foxtrapper: Everything I've been able to find from them isn't made here either.

Um, yea. What exactly are you saying?

Not picking nits, but in a global economy, "made in USA" is a pretty hard thing to define.

Use Buyamerican.com or whatever their name is with caution. I looked at it, and it doesn't seem to have been updated for years. Their sources are claims made by HomeDepot and the like.

mad_machine
mad_machine SuperDork
10/25/11 11:17 p.m.

I see nothing wrong with regulations if it keeps the air clear and the water drinkable.

I am old enough to remember how nasty it could be.. going into Philly was like swimming into a soup of unfamilier and overwhelming smells chemical smells.

And before you think it is over-regulation. Why do you think manufactoring keeps hopping around the globe? It is to get the absolutely cheapest price to make something. If they could find a reliable workforce that would toil all day for less than china.. all the factories would close up shop and move there

MitchellC
MitchellC Dork
10/25/11 11:20 p.m.
ThePhranc wrote: In reply to MitchellC: Labour isn't the cost that keeps Americans from manufacturing in America. Kia BMW and other companies pay American labour rates. But they also have the capitol to comply with the over regulations. A start up in America would need 1/2 a billion to use just for all the BS. Quality doesn't have to cost more. That is a myth. Most quality is perceived but not actual. What blew American manufacturing were a mix of costs associated with regulations and overly burdensome union wages and benefit packages.

A lot of companies are already getting around the wage issues by buying out the tenured employees to hire new ones at lower wages or developing new factories in the south.

I am a bit curious about the over regulations, because honestly I am not too familiar with what it takes to build a factory. What part of the process should be cut?

I would say that quality is a mixture of design language, raw materials, and fitment. To improve upon any of these requires higher costs. Is a Harbor Freight screwdriver any different than a Craftsman Professional screwdriver? They have the same basic forms and are constructed of the same basic materials, yet most would argue that one is superior to the other.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 5:45 a.m.
Tom Heath wrote: If he were lamenting the fact that he could really use a pickup truck, I might suggest a wheelbarrow instead. Mission accomplishment>method in my book. Again, I'm sorry I offered up an American-made method to grind metal. I didn't realize that electric was more important than American made. My mistake. I've learned my lesson and won't offer to help you that way again. I'm sorry that my comment came off as an attack, but to that point, you hadn't even bothered to say "thanks" to any of the other users who had tried to help, and that's downright un-neighborly.

I'm really not sure what is so hard to understand about this. I have a air grinder, and it was made in the US, like all air tools used to be. That's why the title didn't say that I couldn't find an American made air grinder. I said I couldn't find an ELECTRIC grinder, and I didn't ask for help finding one.
So you attacked me because I hadn't yet said thank you? Seriously? Try to find a post I've made in the past, which is asking a question where I didn't say thanks. I always do, to those that help me to answer that question. But I didn't ask a quesiton in this post, nor did I ask for help, nor did I get any help. Nevertheless, you are incorrect, as I did say thank you to 1988redt2 on the first page. And I likely would have said it again before it was all over. Frankly, your comment sounds like you were trying to re-direct the emphasis of the thread to something you could criticize me for. Again, I don't know why, but you seem to have an axe to grind with me. Why don't you just state what it is?

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 5:52 a.m.

To everyone - THANK YOU!
Please understand that I am not asking for someone to tell me where I can buy an American grinder, although if you did I would be thankful.
Also understand that the issue isn't quality, or a global economy, or wages or any of the other factors discusssed here. It comes down to the fact that to build wealth within a country, more money has to come in than goes out. We are/were a manufacturing country, and it is the buying public who has created this mess. Yes, you and me. We demand cheaper and cheaper products, which eventually lead to forcing manufaturing out of this country. We are nearing a breaking point, with a Govenment that seems to not recognize that you can't keep spending money you don't have, and a buying public that in general doesn't get it. Even here, people are more focused on the $10 Chinese grinder they can get from HF instead of what's best for us all in the long run. You may be right and I wrong, but I know longer think that way, and am going to continue to try to buy American whenever I can.
It was only a few years ago, when I bought a foreign car new, that I was preaching this global economy crap to everyone else. Yes, it is a global economy, and it's part of the reason this countries economy is going into the crapper. Don't be so arrogant to think we can't fail. We can.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 5:53 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: I am not sure I get it. Nobody came up with an electric angle grinder made in the US yet? Perhaps they don't exist, that's surprising. Maybe it's time for swap meets and whatnot instead. I'm with you.

Thanks. You are a true patriot.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 6:07 a.m.

In reply to Tom Heath:

Tom, Just to clarify, I obviously am not an but kisser. I understand that you run this website and I appreciate that greatly. Thank you for that. But this isn't about that.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
10/26/11 6:13 a.m.

Not to pick nits but technically speaking, since you are compressing the air with an electric compressor the air driven grinder is an electric dependent device. If it actually grinds what you need to have ground then you can console yourself that you have done your patriotic duty, check that box and move on to more important topics like which dialect of Chinese to learn first .

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 6:21 a.m.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Not to pick nits but technically speaking, since you are compressing the air with an electric compressor the air driven grinder is an electric dependent device. If it actually grinds what you need to have ground then you can console yourself that you have done your patriotic duty, check that box and move on to more important topics like which dialect of Chinese to learn first .

Very funny! Okay, here's my reasons for wanting an electric grinder, and they are good ones. I do a lot of sheet metal fab, welding and body work, so I need a grinder and use one frequently. An air operated grinder has two (or more) down sides. One is that it makes the compressor run more, which is noisy, which I don't like. The other is that they use a ton of air. I have a pretty large commercial air compressor, but constant use of an air grinder still uses more air than the compressor can put out, so the pressure goes down and the performance of the grinder goes down with it. It also doesn't have a brake like my electric grinder to stop the wheel quickly after I let off the trigger, something I like a lot.

ThePhranc
ThePhranc Reader
10/26/11 7:20 a.m.

In reply to mad_machine:

Some regulations are good and are needed. Some are just burdens on companies.

Manufacturing move to where it is cheapest period. That isn't just wages that also includes regulations.

ThePhranc
ThePhranc Reader
10/26/11 8:00 a.m.
MitchellC wrote:
ThePhranc wrote: In reply to MitchellC: Labour isn't the cost that keeps Americans from manufacturing in America. Kia BMW and other companies pay American labour rates. But they also have the capitol to comply with the over regulations. A start up in America would need 1/2 a billion to use just for all the BS. Quality doesn't have to cost more. That is a myth. Most quality is perceived but not actual. What blew American manufacturing were a mix of costs associated with regulations and overly burdensome union wages and benefit packages.
A lot of companies are already getting around the wage issues by buying out the tenured employees to hire new ones at lower wages or developing new factories in the south. I am a bit curious about the over regulations, because honestly I am not too familiar with what it takes to build a factory. What part of the process should be cut? I would say that quality is a mixture of design language, raw materials, and fitment. To improve upon any of these requires higher costs. Is a Harbor Freight screwdriver any different than a Craftsman Professional screwdriver? They have the same basic forms and are constructed of the same basic materials, yet most would argue that one is superior to the other.

One regulation is that every "childrens product" has to be tested for lead even if no lead is used. Something easy for Mattel to do but very expensive for a small start up that is making knitted baby beanies. There are examples of regulation about some fish stopping the refitting and starting up hydroelectric plants. Even some big companies like 3M are talking about having to move. These regulations cost the economy billions a year. Then there is OSHA.

If the Co2 regulation based of junk science ever passes I'll be forced out of business. I run a neon shop with open fires all day. We couldn't afford the EPAs fines for the the Co2 that we produce.

The problem with these regulatory agencies is that once they fix the problems they were created for they need to keep coming up with more regulation to stay relevant. Obama even has Sunstien as a regulation czar and there are over 4000 new regulations slated.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
10/26/11 8:50 a.m.

The CO2 regulations did pass, and are in effect. We are issuing permits on them.

A neon shop with open fires, you're too small. Your actual and your potential emissions are almost certainly way too low to require a permit. Not that a permit requires you to do anything anyhow (there are no CO2 emission standards).

So, your worries are unfounded. At least for the time being.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
10/26/11 9:00 a.m.

In reply to ThePhranc:

Interesting that you bring up the leaded materials in toys as an issue. Especially since all of the news I've heard and read (both on NPR and in print) is that the products coming from China via big companies are not following the rules well, which has put a big dent in preception of Chinese toys. Which has lead to a resurgance of toys being made in the US. Which is a way of saying that the proper regulations have actually MADE US jobs.

For your glass work- so you are saying that there is no way that you can reduce the amount of fuel you used to produce your product? You've looked at every angle which will save your customers money? Or are you just projecting a regulation that the EPA has not even proposed for your business, yet?

As for the new regulations- again, look behind the scenes a little. You might find that there are jobs that are being created thanks to the new regulations. Or even the discussion of the new regulations. I know quite a few people, along with myself, who have jobs just because of the regulations, and if you work it right, you can find a nice little competetive advantage by doing something required better and cheaper than the other guy.

Lastly, regulations in general- all regulations come because someone screwed up and put a massive burdon on people who didn't do anything wrong- accounting (thank you Enron, for cooking the books), environment (I remember driving cars in the 70's, too- let alone the fire on the water in Cleveland), food safety (pretty obvious), bank laws (Depression 1 and 2), etc. Many of the new ones are thanks to issues that have not been fully fixed in the first place- California still has a particulate issue, as does Europe (in spades). And a lot of the new ones are just putting things back to where they were prior to de-regulation (the Wall Street rules that they are trying to put in).

Having noted that there are new plants being put in all over the place, most noteably automotive, if someone blames regulations for moving, my opinion is that it's just an excuse to make more money. And long term, at the expense of people who actually buy or use that product (the OP's main point).

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
10/26/11 9:15 a.m.

Eric I would like to subscribe to your newsletter!

tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/26/11 9:17 a.m.
alfadriver wrote: And long term, at the expense of people who actually buy or use that product (the OP's main point).

Guys, I am pretty sure his point was: whether or not you agree with his motives, he was disappointed to find no electric grinders made in the US. I am as well. This discussion is interesting, I suppose, but not even close to on topic.

My Dad used to sell Mac tools. Good US made stuff, right? When I was looking at welders, I initially looked at used. Mac welders, he told me, were made in Italy by some HB type company, even in the early 90s. Terrible. I lament the loss of being in a country that actually produces.

Tom Heath
Tom Heath Web Manager
10/26/11 9:22 a.m.

In reply to bravenrace:

When I'm not knee-deep in updates and fixes, I will be sending you a PM. If you have anything more to say on the subject, you can reach me via PM.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim SuperDork
10/26/11 9:43 a.m.
mad_machine wrote: I see nothing wrong with regulations if it keeps the air clear and the water drinkable. I am old enough to remember how nasty it could be.. going into Philly was like swimming into a soup of unfamilier and overwhelming smells chemical smells.

Word. The whole bit about "overregulation" is a bit of a red herring. Other countries have far more stringent regulations (environmental and otherwise) and yet they still have thriving manufacturing sectors. Germany comes to mind. Last time I checked they didn't do too badly. And yes, I left that country for a reason, but it wasn't "overregulation".

Even some of the emerging economies like India are far more bureaucratic and overregulated, but they still manage to do well.

mad_machine wrote: And before you think it is over-regulation. Why do you think manufactoring keeps hopping around the globe? It is to get the absolutely cheapest price to make something. If they could find a reliable workforce that would toil all day for less than china.. all the factories would close up shop and move there

This. And the funny thing is, the actual wages aren't that big a part of the total cost of the end product in the first place, but if you're willing to partake in the race to the bottom economically speaking, it's the easiest part to squeeze. Trouble is that it also tends to reduce the pool of people who can afford to buy your products, but that won't show up in this quarterly earnings report.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
10/26/11 9:46 a.m.

Do note, I'm not saying that all of the regulations are perfect- all of them have issues, and I'm sore most of them have lobbiest writing all over them- how else can you have huge emissions regulations on cars, which are mobile sources, and a lot fewer on plants, particularly power and oil production. Heck, why are there so few rules for what gas is available? I know that if the kinds of fuels that are available for use in the US were regulated like they are in California, we'd all be better off WRT air- real world.

tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/26/11 9:48 a.m.
alfadriver wrote: Do note, I'm not saying that all of the regulations are perfect- all of them have issues, and I'm sore most of them have lobbiest writing all over them- how else can you have huge emissions regulations on cars, which are mobile sources, and a lot fewer on plants, particularly power and oil production. Heck, why are there so few rules for what gas is available? I know that if the kinds of fuels that are available for use in the US were regulated like they are in California, we'd all be better off WRT air- real world.

Dude, PM me if you really don't think there are regulations on stationary natural gas powered turbines in the US. You're pretty far off there.

As for the topic, I guess the OP and a few others of us have been voted off the island. You all can debate amongst yourselves the merits of various regulations while we look for US made power tools elsewhere.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
10/26/11 9:53 a.m.

Tuna- This is the OP speaking just above here.

bravenrace wrote: Also understand that the issue isn't quality, or a global economy, or wages or any of the other factors discusssed here. It comes down to the fact that to build wealth within a country, more money has to come in than goes out. We are/were a manufacturing country, and it is the buying public who has created this mess.

That tells me that we are not regarding our fellow spenders when it comes to buying stuff. We want stuff so cheap AND large companies want profits so much that we are willing to send jobs away from the US. For every job we send away, that's another consumer that is not able to buy something. Let alone sending money overseas.

You could make and sell stuff here, as well as send that overseas. But we choose the short term gain of quick $$ instead of very long term sustainability.

Oh, one more thing on regulation- China is being regulated. And very quickly. Had to deal with that on an emergency basis recently.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
10/26/11 9:57 a.m.
tuna55 wrote:
alfadriver wrote: Do note, I'm not saying that all of the regulations are perfect- all of them have issues, and I'm sore most of them have lobbiest writing all over them- how else can you have huge emissions regulations on cars, which are mobile sources, and a lot fewer on plants, particularly power and oil production. Heck, why are there so few rules for what gas is available? I know that if the kinds of fuels that are available for use in the US were regulated like they are in California, we'd all be better off WRT air- real world.
Dude, PM me if you really don't think there are regulations on stationary natural gas powered turbines in the US. You're pretty far off there. As for the topic, I guess the OP and a few others of us have been voted off the island. You all can debate amongst yourselves the merits of various regulations while we look for US made power tools elsewhere.

I never said that there were no regulations. I did say that the non-perfect regulations put more burdens on part of the market over others. Automotive emissions regulations >> stationary power. Automotive regulations >> gasoline standards.

The PZEV section of LEVII would not exist without that (where the emissions of a gas vehicle were roughly 1/5 of an equivallent electric vehicle based on stationary emissions, since every 5 PZEV vehicles replaced 1 electric- and that's heavily based on EPA reports to Californa).

tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/26/11 10:00 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
tuna55 wrote:
alfadriver wrote: Do note, I'm not saying that all of the regulations are perfect- all of them have issues, and I'm sore most of them have lobbiest writing all over them- how else can you have huge emissions regulations on cars, which are mobile sources, and a lot fewer on plants, particularly power and oil production. Heck, why are there so few rules for what gas is available? I know that if the kinds of fuels that are available for use in the US were regulated like they are in California, we'd all be better off WRT air- real world.
Dude, PM me if you really don't think there are regulations on stationary natural gas powered turbines in the US. You're pretty far off there. As for the topic, I guess the OP and a few others of us have been voted off the island. You all can debate amongst yourselves the merits of various regulations while we look for US made power tools elsewhere.
I never said that there were no regulations. I did say that the non-perfect regulations put more burdens on part of the market over others. Automotive emissions regulations >> stationary power. Automotive regulations >> gasoline standards. The PZEV section of LEVII would not exist without that (where the emissions of a gas vehicle were roughly 1/5 of an equivallent electric vehicle based on stationary emissions, since every 5 PZEV vehicles replaced 1 electric- and that's heavily based on EPA reports to Californa).

I don't know what automotive stuff is, like I said, you can PM me to discuss, but gas turbines are at 5 ppm nox and well under that for co in some places domestically. I doubt automotive is enough beneath that to be meaningful.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
10/26/11 10:18 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: Dude, PM me if you really don't think there are regulations on stationary natural gas powered turbines in the US. You're pretty far off there.

Regulation wise, natural gas is a walk in the park compared to fuel oil and coal.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
10/26/11 10:25 a.m.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the OP was actually about, in light of the rest of the thread.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
10/26/11 10:26 a.m.
tuna55 wrote:
alfadriver wrote: And long term, at the expense of people who actually buy or use that product (the OP's main point).
Guys, I am pretty sure his point was: whether or not you agree with his motives, he was disappointed to find no electric grinders made in the US. I am as well. This discussion is interesting, I suppose, but not even close to on topic. My Dad used to sell Mac tools. Good US made stuff, right? When I was looking at welders, I initially looked at used. Mac welders, he told me, were made in Italy by some HB type company, even in the early 90s. Terrible. I lament the loss of being in a country that actually produces.

Yes, that was my point. I shouldn't have included the rant about Chinese products, as that just complicated the thread.
I worked as an engineer for Matco Tools in the late 80's-early 90's. I had one of those HB welders. Piece of crap, but it was a left over test unit for us. Back then, anything not made in the US was frowned upon by our dealers. We were the first of the pro tool suppliers that to offer Iwata paint guns that were made in Japan. We couldn't sell them, because they had some plastic parts on them and they were made in Japan. Man, things have changed. Iwata paint guns are pretty highly respected now, and I would love to buy a tool made in Japan versus one made in China.
Matco is/was a Danaher company. Danaher also owns the company that did/does produce Craftsman hand tools (wrenches, sockets, ratchets). Summit Racing recently started selling Craftsman tools. I went in there the other day and looked at some. All made in China.

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